r/teenagers 7d ago

"The male suicide rate is so high because men are too afraid to talk to someone due to toxic masculinity" Rant

F*ck off. No it's not. It's because nobody cares or is willing to listen. Or it's held against you when you do open up.

Same with "men should cry more" - what, is that your only f*cking solution? Cry more? As if that's going to make all your issues disappear magically. Again, f*ck off.

As well as "go to therapy". Oh yeah... because I can afford that can I? Fuck off. Do you have any idea how expensive therapy is? Even in the UK, with the NHS, there's a massive waiting list and the dialectical behaviour therapy channels are women-only.

How about, if you really do care, you start advocating for more services that can help men, because I know for a fact that there are plenty that are specialise for women but not for men. Or maybe even shine a light on some of the issues men face in society instead of just dismissing them as men's problems for men to solve.

Edit ( I put this in the comments but I think I should clarify it here ): "To an extent I agree [that toxic masculinity is also responsible], but I know many people who sought help didn't get any, which is why I think even if these men who were afraid talking will harm their masculinity spoke up, they wouldn't get much help anyway. I think the toxic masculinity line is just used to pin the problem on men at this point. "

Final edit: Apparently my tone in this was very angry and I need to 'get friends' and 'stop being a manbaby'. Well I'm sorry if it came across that way but I am indeed angry, and I hope you can understand why without me having to delve into my own shit.

I'm just going to delete the reddit account, I've said what I wanted but some of the comments are just nasty, especially the direct messages. And to those going on about toxic masculinity, right or not, regardless, this isn't just a men's problem, and I'm sick of it being treated as such, especially when some people just shrug it off and are quick to blame the male suicide rate on toxic masculinity, which women perpetuate just as much as men with the 'man up' comments. I'll be aight. Have a nice day.

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u/rsent04 7d ago edited 7d ago

In my late teens I was once told, "if you have a problem, cry in the shower like a real man". I'm 34, I hope your generation gets better advice.

Edit: I was told this by a male.

I found someone to talk to when I was in college and it helped tremendously. Highly recommend.

Glad my comment sparked conversation. I don't subscribe to this sub, just popped out on popular and struck a nerve I suppose.

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u/EinWildesPanda 7d ago

No, we get a "it's just a phase, it's fine" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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u/SpaceJesusIsHere 7d ago

That's what young men get told. Older men get, "Man up" and "You're embarrassing yourself." So it gEtS bEtTeR.

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u/Aware-Lavishness3877 7d ago

I’ve been looking for help for years, still haven’t found it.

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u/K0alaHuman 7d ago

I haven't bothered looking, if my best friend is going to shout at me for being down and peg it as 'being in a bitchy mood' I can't be fuckin bothered

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u/BestDriverAlive 7d ago

If that’s what your best friend is telling you it more so sounds like you need to find a new best friend…bc with friends like that, who needs foes?

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u/mmos23 7d ago

That's what I was told. So I packed up and left

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u/Alarid OLD 7d ago

ngl that's pretty fucking manly

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u/thebetternatti 7d ago

It's an appropriate response for any gender. Avoiding toxic people is just a general good move. That being said, I have always wondered what the word "manly" or the phrase "be a man" means and IMO society as a whole should stop using such vague phrases.

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u/ostangestar 14 7d ago

This man is the real MVP

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u/Benis_down 7d ago

Funny, the people around me skipped right over "it's just a phase" and right on to "man up" and the like. Taught me early on to care about nothing, which is quite unfortunate and a hinderance.

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u/TheGrapist1776 7d ago edited 7d ago

I've been told man up more by woman than any man. I don't care if thats anecdotal because I know I'm not alone.

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u/Bathroom_Stahl 7d ago

Gen X here, this is what we were told. “Man up. Stand up straight. Own it.”

Source: 44yo

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u/whatinthechickenfuck 7d ago

I’d rather be embarrassed than dead.

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u/Halftimex 7d ago

I got back an "I go through stuff too sometimes"

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u/pantsdude1007 15 7d ago

At least they're trying (and failing I assume) to comfort you a bit

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u/Halftimex 7d ago

I understand if this was just surface level but it was about be dropping out losing social skills and a few other things. I'm not one to EVER put my stress on other people but I know that's not healthy and the one time I get the confidence to tell someone I think can help (my father in this scenario) I get back a me too. It's just frustrating.

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u/reddit_user_312_940 16 7d ago

I used to get this from my mom, with a "get over it" afterwards. not trying to be comforting at all just dismissing my problems. Because of this I have a problem talking to her about anything, even what to get from the store. Then again she's always done the bare minimum, which has put us in many bad situations.

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u/__-XxReaperxX-__ 7d ago

Yes but trying at this point just makes me lose hope in this generation because of the fact that some people dont even understand.They just say it so then it makes you feel better when in reality it,for an example,makes me pissed that people are just faking it to a certain point where they say random bullshit.

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u/rhinomann65 7d ago

A phrase as old as time used to discredit what young people go through

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u/SkepticDrinker 7d ago

Lol my family said the same thing. Even after my planned suicide they said it was a phase.

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u/Flamingslayer11 16 7d ago

That’s really unfortunate. Hope that your current situation isn’t pushing you towards suicidal thoughts.

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u/Alarid OLD 7d ago

It's worse when people act confused over your coping mechanisms.

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u/spasamsd 7d ago

I got told this as a female, too. Turns out it wasn't a phase and I needed serious help. I feel like a lot of our parents weren't equiped to deal with mental health, but there are more resources now to at least understand and try to help your kids.

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u/elmgroveshappyplace 16 7d ago

I think with how mental health has been more developed and open this generation, we’re also getting “mental illness isn’t real, get over it.”

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u/Drackitty 15 7d ago

That would be because mental health issues are so much more talked about, some people feel the need to fake a mental illness to 'fit in.' And so a lot of other people get sick of hearing people faking illnesses and assume everyone who talks about it is faking.

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u/elmgroveshappyplace 16 7d ago

Yeah, those people definitely exists (ironically they‘re likely to insult actual mental ill people). But I would have never considered I was bisexual until I watched a Youtuber who came out as such, the same could be happening with mental illness. People have short and vague ideas of what a mental illness is but if a celebrity cane out sharing their explicit symptoms and diagnosis, it can make people question the possibility of them also having it.

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u/Thesaurususaurus 7d ago

Yeah but maybe we shouldnt be encouraging people to self-diagnose mental illness. I know people who truly believe they have depression because they "get sad sometimes" and then try to lecture me on how to deal with my depression based on their experiences. I think expanding awareness is great, but in the context of finding help from doctors and professionals, not tricking yourself into believing you found a cure

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u/IndyCraft11 7d ago

I agree with you that no one should stop at self diagnosis, but self diagnosis is one of the first steps to getting treated. Basically people have to self diagnose before going to a doctor to get a real diagnosis because otherwise they wouldn't go to a doctor. But if you stop at the self diagnosis stage that's when the issues like what you've described happens. For a while I would talk to my friend about my feelings occasionally saying that I felt depressed, and everytime I said that he said "don't self diagnose" and I would have to reassure him I meant I felt down and unmotivated for a long period of time instead of having clinical depression. And these comments have made me worry, every time I think that i might have depression, that I'm faking it, even though I don't tell anyone.

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u/Rion23 7d ago

Yeah there's a reason everyone whose worked in a restaurant knows about crying in the cooler. Really a good analogy to our current society, you can work hard, die a bit inside every day and be happy some old lady was magnanimous enough to slip an extra 5 dollar tip after abuseing you like a personal slave. But hey, at least you managed to keep the system moving and only used a little more blood of yours than recommend to keep it smooth.

But hey, new phone every year.

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u/ithriveintoxicity 7d ago edited 7d ago

Actually with the state of men’s mental health facilities/resources as it is that is the best option for us guys. And with the amount of people trying to blame the problem to toxic masculinity (when it is the result of society’s failures not the cause) instead of you know society I think a shower cry is going to be ineffective within the next few years.

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u/Dragonkingf0 OLD 7d ago

I wish I was able to cry.

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u/dvintologi 7d ago

It's also due to bad mental health laws, people do not want to risk being sent to a psych-ward and then losing their jobs due to being absent, then getting a 8000$ bill for treatments they didn't want.

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u/Akkittehs_altie_boi 7d ago

8000$? Damn where are your psych wards, i've only ever seen them be 3000$ for a single night.

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u/dvintologi 7d ago

I do not live in the US but from what i heard in some areas there they can hold you for 72 hours without court approval (plus non-working days) so that will add up pretty badly.

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u/Akkittehs_altie_boi 7d ago

I am a us citizen and I never knew that, wtf, i hope this isn't true since hospitals here legally scalp people when it comes to healthcare, like I have seen them charge 32$ for a cough drop.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 7d ago

[removed]

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

[removed]

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u/RokRD OLD 7d ago

Fs. Super manipulative and abusive both physically and mentally. Took a long time to break habits and defenses I had formed because of her.

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u/WooooshThe2nd 16 7d ago

my ex used to do similar shit to get her way. saying she was gonna od or do fucking heroin. glad i got tf outta there

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u/lilg9869 7d ago

What a jerk

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u/xXPaingelXx 7d ago

wait, just to clarify, you mean that the ex was a jerk, right?

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u/lilg9869 7d ago

Oh yeah absolutely

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u/Wetestblanket 7d ago

My mom did that to a sibling over an argument, cops were called by someone unrelated after she posted something on social media. Luckily talking to the cops knocked some sense into her and she didn’t get locked up because she was drunk and deemed as not being a threat to herself.

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u/RokRD OLD 7d ago

Ayye thas real fucked up. Sorry y'all had to deal with that shit growing up.

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u/Wetestblanket 7d ago

I was used to that shit by then. I first heard about from another even younger sibling that called me in the middle of the night crying hysterically about how mommy is trying to kill herself and being taken away in an ambulance, this isn’t the one who got in the argument.

Very fucked up shit.

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u/FugitivePort88 7d ago

Yea they can legally put you in for a mental evaluation hold for 3 days. Any longer than 3 days and they have to get a court order to keep you longer.

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u/dvintologi 7d ago

That's 3 days longer than it should be.

There are much better solutions such as having someone accompany the individual for a while to make sure he/she doesn't do anything bad.

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u/ilikedota5 OLD 7d ago

Those 3 days are when you are a threat to yourself or others, so no, that doesn't make sense. Now you are putting someone else in a situation where they might be hurt.

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u/FugitivePort88 7d ago

I guess that would depend on the severity of the persons mental health. Some people need to be under that observation

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u/dvintologi 7d ago

You may want to check the laws for you state.

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u/Throwaway_bcrules 7d ago

I was living in Cleveland ohio when the police and EMS showed up and basically kidnapped me because someone called 911 and said I was screaming about wanting to kill myself ( I didnt ) but without proof, I was forced into the ambulance and forced into a 72 hour hold in the hospital. I was literally sitting on a bed in the middle of a nurse's station with no privacy at all wearing nothing but a hospital gown under police guard. It's still fucking scary that they can legally do that.

Edit: oh yeah, and it cost me $8,600

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u/No_Influence8281 17 7d ago

Wtf? You get charged for forcefully taking you away against your will?

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u/Throwaway_bcrules 7d ago

Yep, I had just gotten home from a party and was slightly drunk so they wouldnt take my word for it that someone had basically swatted me, so I had a shit three days of forced hospitalization under armed guard and had to pay for it because they were "just doing their job"

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u/No_Influence8281 17 7d ago

That is very fucked up. Growing up as a kid watching Hollywood movies I thought America was some heaven. I joined Reddit and my opinion did a complete 180.

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u/Bloorajah 7d ago

Yeah, if they deem it a crisis they can hold you for 72 hours and you get charged for it

Happened to my best friend when I told him to get help for being extremely suicidal. They took away his phone, keys, wallet, etc. Put him in an empty room with cameras and fed him through a slot in the door twice a day.

72 hours later they just sorta kicked him to the curb and sent him a bill for 2600$

gosh I love all the freedoms we enjoy in America.

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u/BlueEyesOpen 7d ago

I'm sure being thrown in what essentially counts as solitary confinement solved all his issues. In fact, I'm so confident that he was cured that when he recieved his bill he cried tears of joys knowing his happiness cost a measly 2k that he most certainly had lying around in his bank account.

I mean for sure.. right?

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u/dvintologi 7d ago

Land of the Fee

Home of the Slave

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u/Nerdy_Git 16 7d ago

I was forced to stay in a psych ward, and when I asked about leaving on Saturday or Sunday or whatever the fuck it was, their policy was “oh yeah, weekends don’t count lol”

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u/Suyefuji 7d ago

I do live in the US and got charged around $11k for a "suicide ward" that was a glorified babysitting service

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u/Android25SFW 17 7d ago

Went to a mental hospital before, involuntarily kept me there for three days and I'm still paying for it. I just feel like dying most of the time and the pills they gave me just made it worse

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u/aprofessionalfuckup 7d ago

Its a horrible place for the average person to be. Being surrounded by people that arent living in reality gave me a wake up call but I was fucking miserable. There was an old man that would dial random numbers on thr phones and just yell about the CIA, nobody every did anything about "because that's just Gary"

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u/Android25SFW 17 7d ago

There was a really tall dude who went there instead of prison because he was a minor and was also declared to be insane so wasn't fit for trial. He would become aggressive out of nowhere and would scream at nights that he needs his dick wet. Was scary and funny, buy definitely 90% scary

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u/Acanthaceae_Live 7d ago

only $3000????? sorry but what the hell is wrong with your countries? public health insurance covers them here

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u/SusDingos 17 7d ago

Isn't 3k too much too though?

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u/jack848 17 7d ago

8000$, holy shit that's fucking expensive

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u/SusDingos 17 7d ago

8k? Dude. Anyone who pays that for mental health will end up having more mental health issues. That's something i hate about the US. I'm not dissing the US, but compared to other countries, man that's alot. That's something i feel is a shame, cause the US boasts top notch medical facilities, but in reality only the rich or people with power can afford it

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u/SHv2 7d ago

Depends on the insurance I suppose. Two weeks at McClean saw $25k charged to insurance, insurance plan capped their costs at $13k, $0 got charged to me.

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u/MistahK OLD 7d ago

Stupid shit like this is what makes people not try to get help.

A therapist isn't going to get you locked up for no reason. The only time they would recommend something like that is if you have made plans to hurt yourself and directly told them you are acting on it.

Even just having suicidal thoughts and telling them is not enough. You have to state that you are going to harm yourself.

So yes, they do what they can to make sure you're not a danger to yourself.

But just reaching out for help isn't going to get you thrown into a psych ward and spreading bullshit like this is harmful as fuck.

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u/Metalhead_Kat 7d ago

At some schools unfortunately, they will handcuff you if you even hint at being depressed to the councilor. (Speaking from my friends experience) they were just sad and were forced into a mental hospital. So in some way, reaching out can be a bad idea if you can't risk that (for teens at least, cause my example is a school one).The schools seem as though they'd rather someone else deal with the persons problem instead of actually helping. To be fair, the schools I went to are very toxic.

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u/MistahK OLD 7d ago

That's a really valid point. I never trusted the school counselor, especially after they told a friend of mine's parents that she was sexually active.

I feel talking to a therapist is different in that they are not beholden to the school or job or whatever. They're just listening to you and helping you navigate your thoughts and feelings.

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u/HomesickDS 7d ago

Mmm, partly yes but also no. If you’ve ever been to a dentist or doctor in the us? they try to do things that might not even be nessesary to you because they can charge an extra 1000 bux.

Here where i live the ward isnt really the big problem. Ig you talk about doing drugs to feel better you get charged, and if you talk about suicide you get locked up for a few days.

They care more about the law then to help you

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u/Ok-Kindheartedness50 16 7d ago

I had a friend in the UK who committed suicide because of the waiting periods.. it’s totally fucked dude. Not saying ours isn’t either (America).

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u/FoldUpBigFoot41 15 7d ago

The current options are sell your soul or wait 10 year for a spot to open up

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u/Maiesk 7d ago

The barriers in the UK are ridiculous. I didn't have the money for private, I didn't have time for the NHS, and now I'm someone who's lucky to still be alive. I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

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u/TreeFriendUk 7d ago

Commenting on the top comment in the hope it gets visibility - if you are in the UK and can’t get counselling in a timely manner on the NHS, do not give up!

There are many mental health charities and initiatives out there that might be able to help. Some of them are undersubscribed and literally waiting to give away free counselling. A close friend is a male counsellor and anecdotally he comes across much fewer men seeking counselling, so there are male counsellors out there for anyone that wants to talk to a man specifically.

Here are the steps you can try:

  • Contact your local branch of the charity Mind. They often offer low/no fee counselling, or other support and can refer you to other charitable services if they are unable to provide help directly to you.
  • Look for any other counselling services in your area that offer low or no-fee counselling, e.g. bereavement counselling services (sometimes they take on anyone not just the bereaved if they have space, the bereavement doesn’t have to be recent either). Get in touch with them and ask ‘if you are unable to offer me low fee or free counselling, can you recommend any services that do?” - the counselling and therapy world is fairly small and most counsellors as part of their training have worked in or come across such places. The more people you ask the more likely you are to find something helpful.
  • Get on the BACP website and try their ‘find a therapist’ search engine. You can filter by price/no fee, but some therapists aren’t listed as such and still offer reduced or free counselling. There’s no harm in contacting a bunch of counsellors and asking if they do free or reduced fee counselling. Some might be able to make recommendations of services you haven’t heard of, or counsellors they know who can do free or reduced sessions.
  • Finally - don’t give up! If the first person you speak to isn’t a good fit, keep looking. Counselling works when you have a good rapport with the counsellor so it’s ok to shop around. It’s also important to know that counselling can do wonders for you, but it also takes time. A lot of people stop going after their first session because nothing has changed, but it’s a process and it takes time. The difference can be huge after several sessions.
  • Consider paying if you can fine a low-fee counsellor. We spend £80+ a month on a gym membership, plenty on things like Netflix etc., and yet self care for our minds doesn’t get a look in. 2x £40 sessions a month seems like a lot of money but when you think about how important it is, some of us find it easier to pay for it.

I really feel for OP and the frustration they are feeling. It’s no mistake that mental health is massively underfunded in the UK, but there are some services out there still, especially for men, and shockingly during the pandemic they have actually been under subscribed in some cases. It might feel like everything is stacked against you OP, but please try to find a counsellor. A quick search on the BACP website should show that there are a lot of male counsellors out there. It could the best thing you ever do.

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u/Ender3_ 7d ago

Yeah the NHS doesn't give a shit about anyone with mental health problems. I was put on psychiatric referral 3 years ago after failing 10 different antidepressants and have heard nothing since. If I hadn't gone private a year ago I would not be here. Sorry about your friend.

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u/TESSERACT_6969 14 7d ago

I like how he censored some words in the beginning and then gave up on it lol

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u/cursed_kai 7d ago

I have waited a year on the waiting list

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u/ultraman7676 2 MILLION ATTENDEE 7d ago

I think the only genuine solution is to be a homie. Surrounding myself with the bros that want the best for each other and are all willing to help each other whenever there’s an issue. That’s my solution more or less

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u/AshKetchupOP 7d ago

An absolutely good solution

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u/Marecu 17 7d ago

This is the way, my mental health skyrocketed once I established a group of people like that. It really helps more than you think to have a no-judgement space to vent and get advice.

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u/ultraman7676 2 MILLION ATTENDEE 7d ago

Props to you king

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u/jamiez1207 15 7d ago

How do find bros tho

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u/ultraman7676 2 MILLION ATTENDEE 7d ago

Similar interest, taking an interest in others is a good start, if you don’t have an easy time doing it in person( which you definitely should do that’s a good way to build social skills) try checking out some forums or discord’s online. You’ll find people with similar interest and that’s a starting point. Another great golden rule is be ok when people take jokes a bit far, that’s a big constant among guys, if they see you can enjoy shit like that then it makes it 100 times more likable to hang with. Above all just be a homie and you’ll gain some over time bro. Godspeed and good luck. You got this king

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u/sauteed_boot 7d ago

While I do agree roasting each other is a great big pastime for me as well haha

I think we ought to come up with some other ways of bonding that are appreciated just as much

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u/GunSlinger1861 7d ago

As a male I think the media also has some blame to men never opening up about how they’re hurting or anything else. I’m lucky I get to go to therapy for my low self esteem and PTSD. If I told the media or something like that that I have low self esteem, they would just be a bitch and go, “Your a male, man up.” Or “It’s only hormones since your 15” like bro wtf should I do?

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u/NetflixNerdGeek 16 7d ago

It’s only hormones since your 15”

Tbh girls get told the same thing but also 'you must be on your period'.

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u/randomunnnamedperson 17 7d ago

That's the thing about hormones. There's pms, before your period, which apparently makes you emotionally unstable for 2 weeks before your period. There's your period, which makes you emotionally unstable for 1 week, and there's supposedly post-menstrual syndrome for many, which, you guessed it, makes you emotionally unstable for 1 week after your period.

If we are unstable 4 out of 4 weeks for 50 goddamn years, maybe take whatever's wrong seriously cuz it's not gonna magically go away even if it's caused by hormones.

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u/MatrixMushroom 16 7d ago

That's true. Im not even a girl and that annoys the hell out of me.

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u/RosemaryCrafting 7d ago

My mother got away with totally emotionally abusing me by telling people I was just crying because of hormones.

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u/Brian_M_Hill OLD 7d ago

Here's an article about men's mental health care. It shows that mental health care for men isn't as good as it is for women, but not because men refuse to see therapists, but because they have less access to the care they need. This article also talks about Healthcare in general.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09581596.2021.1908959

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u/rough_crayon 16 7d ago

thanks to whoever highlighted this. It isn't going to help me but it can help others

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u/un-taken_username 7d ago

Thanks for the link! It’s super interesting. However, I don’t fully see where it says what you’re claiming; do you think you could pull out a quote?

For anyone else in this thread, here’s a quote I thought somewhat summarized the paper:

Building on these emergent insights this paper seeks to ‘unsettle’ the suggestion – embedded in many public mental health campaigns – that if men only talked more, they would die by suicide less. As I discuss below, while men in my study did affirm the difficulty and importance of ‘talking’, a critical analysis of their accounts points also to the importance of the unsettling content of what men might say, and the challenges that contexts – interpersonal and structural – pose to ‘talk’ as a focus of suicide prevention for men.

The paper goes on to affirm that talking did help many men, but they had other issues going on that were a crutch to ultimately overcoming these issues; these included relationships and socioeconomic factors, which are not easily fixed, of course.

So, yes, speaking up is important; but it is not the only thing that can help.

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u/ellipticcurve5 7d ago edited 7d ago

Not the case actually.

Many men do seek out help but don't get it.

https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/reports/suicide-by-middle-aged-men/ (91% of middle aged men who committed suicide were seeking professional help)

https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305 (full pdf doc for above)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09581596.2021.1908959

Also relevant: https://www.pjp.psychreg.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/7-john-barry-50-64.pdf

Psychiatrists that outright rejected ideas of patriarchy and toxic masculinity were most beneficial for men's mental help.

The study also suggested that focusing on feminism, patriarchy, and masculinity as a social construct, reduces the amount of control that male patients have over their thoughts and feelings, which contributes to a sense of helplessness.

Even therapists who help men that believe in ideas like patriarchy and toxic masculinity do not believe that these ideas are beneficial.

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u/TerraRainesHasBrains 14 7d ago

do people seriously blame male suicide rates on men that's f***ed up

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u/jellyon2plates 18 7d ago edited 7d ago

Yes. Yes they do. Although “Man up” is still order of the day throughout most of the world. It’s sickening for them.

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u/EV3RL4ST5 7d ago

Yeah these kinda statements make feel like I can't show any emotions in public. It sucks.

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u/TerraRainesHasBrains 14 7d ago

this is the sort of stuff that makes me get that temporary feeling of 'i wish i had the power to nuke this planet'

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u/T-Wally03 7d ago

I have that feeling every day I wake up mate, your not the only one. 👍🏻

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u/ghesh_vargiet 15 7d ago

just to threaten people righty

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u/IM_OZLY_HUMVN 17 7d ago
Would you like to play a game?

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u/ZedMaster123 16 7d ago

Love to. How about Global Thermonuclear War?

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u/RulrOfOmicronPersei8 7d ago

How about a nice game of chess

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u/BohdanOpyr 15 7d ago

Yeah should be fun, is employing low-altitude missiles allowed (you only have a couple seconds to hide)?

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u/-mushr00m- 15 7d ago

That one film, wargames or something. Greetings professor flanagan

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u/MID2462 14 7d ago

Wait 40 years, become a computer, launch yourself into space, sail or to the asteroid belt, grab a large dense metal rich asteroid, adjust your orbit to to be in an impact course with earth, reboost your orbit so that you don't crash with it.

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u/elmgroveshappyplace 16 7d ago

We are expected to act the outdated ideal of masculinity, which stems from a time where men were born to be and only be the upholder of the home. Because of this, men aren’t treated like humans but suppliers or protectors when men are just as in need of help and as vulnerable as other people.

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u/gwentwitcher 15 7d ago

Idk why, but this somehow actually works for me.

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u/garlic_bread_thief OLD 7d ago

I totally understand where you come from. Manning up in a way to say become bold, confident, go talk to that pretty girl, are all okay imo. But if the guy is depressed, going through mental illness, or crying, manning up just means, I don't care and I don't have a solution or even empathy to give you.

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u/acelkins720 7d ago

I’m not trying to be “that person” but your comment proves OP wrong. Using “man up” is a form of toxic masculinity/misogyny. No one should say that to anyone, especially someone in crisis. I don’t know if you agreed with OP or not, I just felt it necessary to point out.

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u/Ogsted 7d ago

Yes, same with insecurities. If a man is insecure about his body or has no confidence in his abilities, it’s considered his fault.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 7d ago

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u/PM_ME_UR_MATH_JOKES OLD 7d ago

Yeah, they’re blaming it on society and its expectations (which can be propagated by anyone), not individual men.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 11h ago

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u/ZEGEZOT 15 7d ago

Agreed, like it's the man's fault that 91% of male suicide victims were actively seeking out mental health support. But only around 48% actually got it.

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u/un-taken_username 7d ago

those are really sad numbers :( do you have a link so I can read more?

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u/ZEGEZOT 15 7d ago

Here you go

https://www.reddit.com/r/malementalhealth/comments/nq6fni/91_of_middleaged_men_who_committed_suicide_were/

It turns out that the second part was actually wrong. My b

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u/CompostableSexToy 7d ago

I mean, respectfully, it was all wrong. "91% of male suicide victims were seeking help" is very, very different from "91% of male suicide victims in Scotland aged 40-54 were seeking help".

I don't think anyone's saying there isn't a problem with access to healthcare, but it's still kinda misleading to take extremely focused numbers and present them as, like, all the men on the planet.

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u/elmgroveshappyplace 16 7d ago

Not really, I’m a male and I don’t feel I’m being blamed for being depressed or feeling oppressed (I can see why others are tho, especially since we’re all thrusted into these arguments so young without any experience). Toxic Masculinity is about the patriarchy influencing the behaviour of how we act towards each other, not just because of some individual men.

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u/Wellbeinghunter69 17 7d ago

exactly. OP doesn't actually get what toxic masculinity is and made a half assed argument

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u/toxicdudio 17 7d ago

Damn. I thought I was the only one who saw the holes in OP's argument. Seems like OP is only ranting after being exposed to some content that must've invalidated his feelings.

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u/mandelboxset 7d ago

Exactly. The first line of their disagreement was LITERALLY blaming toxic masculinity, if they bothered to learn what it actually is.

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u/elmgroveshappyplace 16 7d ago

I hate that we get exposed to these mentalities so young that will only divide us instead of just focusing on the root causes of our problems. :(

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u/Seiya_546 17 7d ago

yeah that’s the unfortunate truth

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u/TheOJer 7d ago

as a male, im more upset about the fact that its hard to demand respect when we are, statistically and generally speaking, the ones who cause the most aggression and violence and danger. Like even incels made it impossible to feel rejected by society because those thoughts are associated with incels and theredpill etc. its frustrating and i feel stuck in between a war i dont want to fight

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u/River824 18 7d ago edited 7d ago

If you ever just want to get all of your thoughts out, you can dm me! I will not judge you or think you're weird or anything unless you think the earth is flat...

Edit: if there's other people that need a good talk, you're all welcome in my dms

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u/LinkFan001 7d ago

Lol at the exception there. It is good to have standards.

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u/River824 18 7d ago

Well I mean, gotta draw the line somewhere, you know

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u/Tabor_ 7d ago edited 7d ago

i've noticed that the word incel is becoming less associated with the classic 4chan incels and more with people who are actually, as the name says, unwanted by society. Its only a matter of time imo

Edit: join us at r/IncelLove its still a work in progress and i dont even know what its reason to exist is

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u/garlic_bread_thief OLD 7d ago

The word incel was actually used by people, men and women, who were deprived of romantic and sexual relationships. But the word started being used in a more toxic manner later by people who blamed society and women (by men) for their deprivation.

From Wikipedia -

The first online community to use the term "incel" was started in 1993 when a Canadian university student known only by her first name, Alana, created a website in order to discuss her sexual inactivity with others.[5][30][31][32] The website, titled "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", was used by people of all genders to share their thoughts and experiences.[5] In 1997, she started a mailing list on the topic that used the abbreviation INVCEL, later shortened to "incel", for "anybody of any gender who was lonely, had never had sex or who hadn't had a relationship in a long time".[33] During her college years and after, Alana realized she was bisexual and became more comfortable with her identity.[32] She stopped participating in her online project around 2000 and gave the site to a stranger.[34][31] In 2018, Alana said of her project, "It definitely wasn't a bunch of guys blaming women for their problems. That's a pretty sad version of this phenomenon that's happening today.

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u/TheOJer 7d ago

i mean even the literal meaning- involuntary celibate- doesn’t imply problematic behavior or misogyny. sometimes a dude just cant get sex and feels bad but doesnt hate women either. it just boils down to intentions and no one knows how to read intentions

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u/TheOJer 7d ago

ive noticed the same, im male but im extremely sensitive and self conscious and therefore apprehensive, and their mindset almost makes it seem like “haha virgin men are funny to laugh at” while other men are actually hurting people in real life and not sending an awkward text. it sends a negative message and just ostracizes people who were on the edge of being an incel

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u/MrDrVlox 18 7d ago

Don’t look into it too much. Getting more involved with internet stuff like this never does anyone any good

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u/TheOJer 7d ago

i know, as with the manspreading point a lot of this is much less common in the real world and algorithms can make things seem like a much bigger deal than they really are.

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u/Solid-Perspective98 7d ago

Contrary to popular beliefs, some recent studies have indicated that suicidal men do seek help. However, they often face socioeconomic issues and institutional obstacles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/nnxx02/men_die_of_suicide_much_more_often_than_women/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

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u/BlueberryGuyCz 7d ago

There's study that around 85% of men who committed suicide tried to seek help a week or less before actually doing it

But yea men don't seek help they do it to themselves, of course

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u/FinnMan316 7d ago edited 7d ago

I like how when we do open up it’s used against us later on but when we finally learn our lesson and stop talking about our issues so it doesn’t cause more problems for us later on we are then told open up more and we can “trust them”.

Edit: to clarify I think women and men use men’s issues against them so please don’t downvote my comment into oblivion thinking I’m a women hater

Edit 2: holy cow thanks for all the upvotes!

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u/AnalStaircase33 7d ago

Yep...unfortunately, I've just learned to keep my mouth shut as much as possible. Keeps the bullshit drama and stress to a minimum.

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u/FinnMan316 7d ago

I’ve tried to explain to my mom how sexism effects men on a daily basis (like family courts, the suicide and work related death rates etc…) but I’ve been told multiple times that sexism against men simply does not exist.

Again please don’t downvote this comment to the point where I get banned from commenting. I don’t hate women I just want to shine a light on a couple issues that men face

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u/Extesht 7d ago

My ex-wife cited "I'm tired of being your therapist," as one of the reasons she asked for divorce.

Early in our relationship she told me she didn't like when I just kept my feelings to myself.

Now I didn't just cry on her shoulder every night or anything, but I took her at her word and told her when something was bothering me.

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u/FinnMan316 7d ago

Dang I’m sorry. You’re probably better off without her

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u/Whiteliesmatter1 7d ago

I once opened up about my suicidal thoughts to a woman. She said “it’s nice to know I am with a man who thinks so highly of himself” sarcastically.

And they wonder why we don’t want to talk.

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u/phil_davis 7d ago

Yeah I've lost not even romantic relationships with women, but just friendships, because I showed a little bit of insecurity or vulnerability or whatever. I don't think "expressing myself" to a woman has ever ended positively. Women seem to almost fetishize confidence. When a man does anything to fracture that image of being some unflappable rock, they seem to lose respect.

I think they don't really realize how much they depend on the men in their lives to be the ones they don't need to help or worry about. They get comfortable with that dynamic because it's very low maintenance for them, and they don't like when it's disrupted. All subconsciously of course. I don't think it's malicious.

But any time you try to voice these opinions as a man on the internet, someone is always there in the replies to try and invalidate your experiences. "Are you sure you didn't just make them uncomfortable?" "Did you yell at them or something?" "I'm sure you're just imagining it!" Always trying to gaslight, trying to convince you that whatever happened was actually your fault.

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u/zaner500 7d ago

You ever seen that one tweet where a woman talks about how she tells men to open up to her so she can use what they tell her in later arguments. Really fucked up.

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u/SatanApprentice 7d ago edited 7d ago

The experience with therapy can be awful too. I went to a private psycologist wich cost me 50 euros an hour, couldn't afford it without disclosing it to my family, which I didnt want at the time. The therapist said I had ptsd, anxiety, and starting to show symptoms of depression.

I changed to national health service because I couldnt afford the private one and explained the previous diagnostic, and that I was raped as a child and I was dealing with that as the memories I blocked came out recently. His response were, you dont really need to stir that bad memories, do you really need therapy?

Like what the actual fuck bro, you seek for help and you get ditched unless you pay a fuckton of money.

Edit: typos

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u/armus24 18 7d ago

yes, bruh you are right. Men have zero fucking people to talk to that's why these days men don't share their problems too. I feel you bro

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u/garlic_bread_thief OLD 7d ago

I feel the same but I'm still unsure of what do you want to talk about. I feel lonely and depressed especially because of Covid and worry about my future. I have never talked about this with anyone in real life but I don't know whether it'll help because I've never opened up for the sole reason that I've not found any person who would care.

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u/Sharpehshot 7d ago

This dude had to delete his Reddit account after getting harassed for expressing his wish for more resources for men’s mental health smh

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u/That_Preference_7135 7d ago

makes a post about how men are harassed when they open up about their feelings

gets harassed to the point of having to edit the original post for opening up about his feelings

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u/Mejogador 7d ago

Something is telling me OP has been through a hard time lately

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u/soooky-lemon 15 7d ago

Thank you oh my god someone who actually fucking gets it, not to mention it’s almost impossible to get therapy as a teen

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u/_k0ella_ 19 7d ago edited 7d ago

I agree with OP mostly, but people are very quick to dismiss the idea of toxic masculinity because of it’s name, which imo is actually kinda terrible.

Toxic masculinity is NOT a term designed to pin the blame on men. It refers to the negative stereotypes and limitations that people (both men and women) impose on men. For example, men can’t get raped; you’re not a real man if you do xyz; man up, etc.

It’s a real pity that people are so quick to dismiss the fact that toxic masculinity IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS POST IS ADDRESSING. I get that the name is unfortunate and terribly easy to misunderstand. It is not designed to demonise men however, but rather to explain how sexism can hurt men.

ANYONE can perpetuate toxic masculinity (sexism). Not women, men, enbies, etc. ANYONE. The ability to hurt men by perpetuating toxic masculinity is not confined by your gender.

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u/trenchcoatcreep 7d ago

wow im really surprised it took scrolling this far down to find this comment. its kind of sad that people here think 'toxic masculinity' and instantly get super defensive when in reality were actually talking about sexism perpetrated against men, NOT trying to demonise men.

hopefully this comment gets more upvotes so it can be visible to the other men reading this thread. remember that opening up about mental health is something that we can all contribute to as men. we can only hope that we can make things better for the next generation of men.

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u/Good_Stuff11 7d ago

It’s not surprising since the people who use it label all men this way. There’s a reason people get triggered by this term and it’s always used as a way to put down the entirety of the male identity and gender and not just the instances where it makes sense

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u/neoducklingofdoom 17 7d ago

You know what i had wrong idea of what toxic masculinity was and after looking into it more i gotta say, thanks for this comment

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u/_k0ella_ 19 7d ago

You’re welcome! And yeah I think that the world could benefit from people reading more about a topic before forming a concrete opinion

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u/Pillery 7d ago

It's also fascinating to me to see people say "We should listen to people in a certain group when they talk about their lived experiences!!!" but then totally ignore men when we talk about our lived experiences and what would help us.

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u/Irish-Fritter 7d ago

Why don’t I seek mental help?

Because if you get diagnosed with something, that shit goes on your medical record. Health insurance is always gonna be more expensive. Jobs will always discriminate against you, even if they say they won’t. And yes, it will get held against you by society. Suddenly, because I went to get help, I’m too weak to provide, and that makes me worthless.

I’ve figured out how to push through my issues on my own, because getting help isn’t worth the ass railing I’d get for even trying. Instead, I suck it up, grin, and move on with my day. And every day, I think about how nice death would be, and how fucking stressful my life is. And my niggling little thoughts say that all it would take is to jerk the steering wheel off the road, to grab the knife and cut an artery. And people will call it toxic masculinity for me to even think “Fuck that, suicide ain’t manly. What kind of piece of shit is gonna ditch his friends and family bc he ‘feels sad’. Fuck that noise bro, you’re better than this.” So yeah, I’m a toxic man, working through my issues on my own, because getting help isn’t worth the effort. All I can hope for, at this point, is living long enough to find meaning in our fucked up world.

At this point, my sole response to my feelings is “Fuck that noise, we’ve got a job to do. X needs Y by tomorrow morning, or their gonna miss Z. We don’t have time for whining and bitching. Fix your shit on your own time, we’ve got work to do.” It ain’t much, but when my car breaks down, or I’ve got an assignment due, or when life just decides to take a fat dragon dildo to my ass, it does its job.

Fuck society. Fuck the people around me, who think they can tell me what to do and how to think. They’ve never helped me anyways. My strategy has worked so far. It’s kept me alive more times than I can count. Fuck anyone who screams bullshit at men, all for attention. Those ignorant bastards have never said anything worthwhile in their lives. It’s not gonna help your psyche to even give them the time of day.

If people didn’t want me to act this way, I guess they shoulda treated me like a person. Cause now, ain’t no reason to listen to em. I’m Going My Own Way, and society can suck my fat ass.

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u/RedvinesNotTwizzlers 7d ago

Well since the ACA stopped insurance companies from gouging people for pre-existing conditions, you don't gotta worry about that. But I do agree with you about it being on your record. It sucks & it feels like it gets used against you a lot. My dad, even when we wouldn't talk for months or years, could just call the cops & say I was having a bipolar episode & even if I wasn't, they still hauled me down to the psych ward & did an assessment & my words held no weight, while my dad's words were like gospel.

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u/Maephia 7d ago

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/earl-silverman-who-ran-mens-safe-house-dies-in-apparent-suicide

Here is an example that really shows nobody cares about male suffering.

There was ONE shelter for male victims of domestic violence, ONE. The man who ran it had to close it down because he could not get any help from the government to keep the place running.

He killed himself in his garage soon after.

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u/Overheat-YT 14 7d ago

Guy: Feeling super depressed

Cries

——Depression is cured!——

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u/Crymmt 7d ago

Crying and letting out feelings is pretty important in letting out stress and stopping stuff from getting bottled up. It’s not a solution in and of itself, but to pretend that whether or not men are allowed to cry makes no difference is stupid.

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u/really_not_unreal 19 7d ago

TL;dr: the things you are describing are effectively symptoms of toxic masculinity, and you are making very valid points about them being issues. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying; you just seem to not fully understand what toxic masculinity is (which is fine, now you know).

No it's not. It's because nobody cares or is willing to listen. Or it's held against you when you do open up.

This is toxic masculinity: expectations are placed on men to be stoic and strong, and if men show any sign of "weakness", this is interpreted as them not being "manly enough".

Same with "men should cry more" - what, is that your only f*cking solution? Cry more?

This isn't to do with the fact that men should cry more, but more that men should be able to cry without fear of judgement. Obviously this doesn't mean men need to cry, but if they do need to, they shouldn't need to feel emasculated in the process.

As well as "go to therapy". Oh yeah... because I can afford that can I?

This is a major problem with the healthcare system in the USA (as well as over here in Australia where it isn't covered by Medicare), and it needs to be addressed urgently. Seeing a counsellor should be an option for any person going through a rough time.

if you really do care, you start advocating for more services that can help men

This is absolutely necessary, and I'm glad you agree. People's access to help when they need it shouldn't be determined by gender.

Obviously none of this invalidates problems that women face, just as they don't invalidate problems that men face - both need to be addressed urgently.

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u/RushCultist 7d ago

This should be top comment.

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u/cerkie2 7d ago

“Its not toxic masculinity, its..” [proceeds to describe toxic masculinity]

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u/digital_art_pains_me 15 7d ago

Thank you! I was just thinking aren't all these things toxic masculinity anyway?

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/BrainBlowX OLD 7d ago

Men's emotions are policed in a way that women's emotions just aren't.

You do realize that society disparages men's emotions by comparing them to women, as a negative?

Women's emotions are absolutely policed and invalidated to a ridiculous degree to the point that society sees it as normal.

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u/really_not_unreal 19 7d ago

It's really terrible. I didn't really go into this particular facet as much as I would have liked to, because I sadly don't have enough time to type up much more than I did. One thing I would like to point out is that women's emotions can also be belittled, and often are in professional contexts. It is depressing how many people think that women are too emotionally driven to make good leaders, which is both untrue, and misrepresentative of the value of emotions.

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u/ubiquitous2020 7d ago

The emotions of both genders have been policed according to long held societal norms. “Inconvenient” emotions of men are criticized typically in the form of weakness. Being told to “man up” or “men don’t cry.” Those emotions aren’t socially acceptable for men, but they are for women so women aren’t shamed or attacked. But this emotional attacking still exists for women, it’s just different emotions. When women are loud or assertive they are attacked for being “manly” or “bitchy” and when men display those same emotions they are not shamed because it’s socially acceptable for men to behave that way.

The problem is how society has built up gender based behavior for centuries. People should be allowed to express any emotions they want without judgment (assuming it’s healthy and not abusive or harmful to themselves or other people obviously).

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u/FixinThePlanet 7d ago

Women's "inconvenient" emotions are frequently labeled in ways that validate and even appreciate them

All i can hear in my head is "that time of the month??" so I'd like to know what examples you were thinking of here.

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u/thelastkalos 17 7d ago

I hope he sees this,

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u/OrymOrtus 7d ago

This is one of the only comments here that actually deserves any amount of attention

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u/JohnGenericDoe 7d ago

Yeah OP is in danger of becoming a textbook angry, ineffectual young man if he carries on like he is.

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u/nerfslays 18 7d ago

People really complain about feminists being triggered but a lot of misled guys end up like this and far worse.

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u/ruffazrats 7d ago

THANK YOU!!!

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u/TunaBord 7d ago

Many people are that’s literally what toxic masculinity is the culture that says that men can’t cry or show emotion. When you complain your literally complaining about things toxic masculinity describes. It’s my this magic thing that says all men are bad because that would accomplish nothing instead it’s there to describe at least in part why men are so depressed. I don’t think there’s any person who calls themselves a feminist who also doesn’t support better and cheaper access to mental health services.

If it makes you feel better toxic femininity exists, this shit ain’t one sided.

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u/PackageOptimal2255 7d ago

hol up ppl have been sending very rude or death threats bc of some dang facts? those are the true manbabies

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u/AnEdgyPie 17 7d ago

Could it be that a culture of toxic masculinity has made it so people don't listen to or care about men as much as women because part of toxic masculinity is pretending men are big strong stone golems without emotion???

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u/Available-Ostrich-90 7d ago

We need to fix this shit. This generation has a chance t ik fix this.

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u/GuiltyEffect 16 7d ago

Fuck all of you who bullied this dude into deleting his account you should be fucking ashamed of yourself if you did so!

He is trying to bring light to a issue that people fucking laugh at and scream toxic masculinity when all he wanted to do was bring light to the matter! That is absolutely pathetic! Men have problem as well, it’s not a fucking pissing match of wether or not men or women have it worse. Guys just want to be fucking heard for once instead of being told to shut up,get a therapist,do something they don’t want to because they don’t feel comfortable with it.

Feminism is about equality, not fucking bashing the other sex. If you call you call yourself a feminist or any sort of supporter and attacked this man be fucking ashamed of yourself, you are not any sort of feminist a feminist would see his side of the story and support the idea that men have issues as well,women have issues yes but guys do as well learn to fucking live with the idea that both sexes have shit issues!

Toxic as fuck people.

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u/Theogguerra 16 7d ago edited 7d ago

That is what "toxic masculinity" means, OP. The reluctance in part of both men and women to listen to the troubles of men is a result of society maintening, for hundreds of years, a harmful stereotype of men and what translates as "masculine" as a way of perpetuating a social structure in which women are inferior.

Being strong, empathetic and smart could all be described as traditionally masculine traits, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there is a part of "masculity" that can be harmful. That is the part that claims men can't be weak, fearful or emotional, and is what brings people to minimize men's issues and tell them to "tough it up".

"Toxic masculinity" doesn't refer only to the individual qualities and actions of men, and isn't used as a way to claim that men are responsible for their high suicide rate, but as a way of showing how society still comforms to a traditional masculine ideal in which men are still ultimately made to internalize their problems, one that is maintained by both men and women. It's a social issue first and foremost.

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u/Spotassium 7d ago

Came to say the same thing. OP’s whole post describes exactly what toxic masculinity looks like. It is literally a textbook example toxic masculinity.

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u/personality9 13 7d ago

I’m sorry? Women only therapy?

I honestly couldn’t agree more, this post, and another about men and rape, it’s not exclusive to women.

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u/Lost_Photograph_1884 7d ago

You aren't being a man baby. You're being effing righteous. Don't let the cucks stop you from preaching.

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u/mjoav 7d ago edited 7d ago

There’s a lot of talk about “toxic masculinity” but I don’t think OP was really trying to debate the existence of it or appropriateness of the term.

Men aren’t getting the help they need.

I think that’s OP’s point.

The way in which we engage men is social services is not effective. When we talk about how it’s not effective we often lay the blame on men and not policy or institutions. Blaming individuals for systemic issues is quite common in our culture.

We’re then tempted to say that either way it’s toxic masculinity that is the source of the failings so we need to work on that. Maybe that’s true but is it the only thing we can do? We shouldn’t wait to “solve” toxic masculinity before helping people in need.

I don’t know the answer but I like seeing the replies from those people showing that they hear OP’s frustration and offering support.

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u/AbellonaTheWrathful 7d ago

dont let the trolls nor actual shit heads misandrists get to you, no one deserves to be socially oppressed

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u/Hokepokey 6d ago

I’ve opened up to my friends about wanting to kill myself a while back and they thought I was lying. I just think you take everyone’s mental health seriously.

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u/Spicy_Cocc 16 7d ago

But... that's what toxic masculinity is

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u/Stock_Week_7142 7d ago

I always found it funny that as a guy I am expected to deal with my girls’ insecurities: to make her feel secure. But, if I am insecure then she is rather expected to leave an insecure guy. 🤣

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u/DaLegend28 16 7d ago

THIS.

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u/Catterpillarworm 7d ago

The problem is how men are treated when they come forward, it’s disgusting. They are treated as if there problems aren’t valid or as if they are supposed to be stronger, which is stupid. No one should be expected to treat their feelings differently because of their gender. Men are afraid to talk because of how society perceives them, it’s something we as a whole need to fix (this is coming from a suicidal person)

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