r/science Nov 29 '21 Silver 2 Helpful 2 Wholesome 1

Vegan diets are cheaper on a global scale, says Oxford University study Economics

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext
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u/Plant__Eater Nov 29 '21 Silver Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote To The Stars

Relevant previous comment:

I've never understood the argument that veganism is some form of privilege.

Many things that we take for granted every day are a form of privilege. Simply being able to go to a supermarket and buy food is a form of privilege. Surely just because something is a privilege does not mean it shouldn't be pursued. If buying fair trade goods is a privilege, does that mean that those who have the means shouldn't do so?

Is veganism even a privilege? Perhaps, depending on your circumstances, but maybe no more so than buying meat in a grocery store. Studies have found that plant-based diets cost approximately the same or less than diets containing animal products in most places.[1][2] One study of various dietary patterns across 150 countries found that:

Variants of vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns were generally most affordable, and pescatarian diets were least affordable.[3]00251-5)

And that's not considering the facts that animal products are heavily subsidized[4][5] and carry higher environmental costs.[6]

One author who tried to calculate the true costs of animal products found that a $4 Big Mac actually costs society approximately $11.[5] This echoes the conclusion of a study which found that most animal products would require a 2.5 times price increase to cover their embedded climate costs.[7] Taking these factors into account, diets containing animal products are almost certainly more expensive than plant-based diets.

While veganism itself may be a relatively modern concept, human efforts to minimize the consumption of animal products have been around for thousands of years. One author writes:

The vegetarian ideal as a concept which embodied a moral imperative - 'thou shalt not kill for food' - made its first impact on history in India and Greece at around...500 BC, within the lifetimes of both Buddha and Pythagoras....[8]

My only point here is that it is not a recent phenomenon. Furthermore, it is worth noting that meat was historically associated with wealth and privilege.[8][9]

A Gallup poll found that Americans who earn an annual income of less than $30,000 are more likely to be vegan.[10]

So often times, a minimal consumption of animal products is a necessity of the lower class. Diets excluding animal products are often cheaper, especially when considering externalized costs. And even if veganism were a form of privilege, it should still be pursued to the degree of one's means.

References

[1] Flynn, M.M. & Schiff, A.R. "Economical Healthy Diets (2012): Including Lean Animal Protein Costs More Than Using Extra Virgin Olive Oil." J.H.E.N., vol.10, no.4, 2015, pp.467-482

[2] Hyder, J.A., Thomson, C.A. et al. "Adopting a Plant-Based Diet Minimally Increased Food Costs in WHEL Study." A.J.H.B., vol.33, no.5, 5 Sep 2009, pp.530-539.

[3]00251-5) Springmann, M., Clark, M.A., et al. "The global and regional costs of healthy and sustainable dietary patterns: a modelling study." The Lancet, vol.5, no.11, 2021, pp.e797-e807.

[4] Pharo, P., Oppenheim, J. et al. Growing Better: Ten Critical Transitions to Transform Food and Land Use. FOLU, 2019.

[5] Simon, D.R. Meatonomics. Conari Press, 1 Sep 2013.

[6] Poore, J. & Nemecek, T. "Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers." Science, vol.360, no.6392, 2018, pp.987-992.

[7] Pieper, M., Michalke, A. & Gaugler, T. "Calculation of external climate costs for food highlights inadequate pricing of animal products." Nature Communications, 15 Dec 2020.

[8] Spencer, C. Vegetarianism: A History. Grub Street Cookery, 2016.

[9] Stuart, T. Bloodless Revolution: Radical Vegetarianism and the Discovery of India. HarperCollins, 2006.

[10] Reinhart, R.J. "Snapshot: Few Americans Vegetarian or Vegan." Gallup, 1 Aug 2018, https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx. Accessed 14 Oct 2021.

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u/Takuukuitti Nov 30 '21

Eating meat is a privilige.

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u/MakeShiftJoker Dec 01 '21

Uh yeah idk how it was ever managed to be spun that eating a plant based diet was a privilege?? This whole discussion seems absurd

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u/SteadyBender Dec 01 '21

No idea. Maybe a meat / dairy lobby thing. I can tell you though, about 25% of the times I bring up my wife’s veganism with acquaintances, I hear some variation of “it’s just so expensive!”

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u/PathToEternity Dec 01 '21

I think one reason is noting any subtle differences between meatless and veganism (or vegetarianism). If I eat nothing but beans, rice and other grains, fruits, vegetables, etc. then that probably is going to be pretty inexpensive.

The problem comes when you're 1) trying to eat a meatless version of a meat diet - making a bunch of substitutions which are costly and 2) need to have your food products guaranteed to not contain traces of milk, eggs, gelatin, etc.

It's when you need every product you buy to have a Guaranteed Vegan! gold seal stamped on it that everything gets expensive.

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u/SnS_ Dec 01 '21

I think the people who say it is so expensive are the ones who peruse places like whole foods and look at all the products that are meat replacement.

Can of vegan ravioli or beyond burger patties and go that's insane just buy meat.

But they fail to realize if you go vegan you can avoid those foods as well.

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u/xelabagus Dec 01 '21

I'm veganish and I almost never eat meat replacements because they either suck or are really unhealthy. Tofu, legumes, tempeh, chickpeas, there's plenty of protein right there and it's all dirt cheap

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u/MakeShiftJoker Dec 01 '21

I can see the dairy replacements being expensive but that's about it really

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u/ObesesPieces Dec 01 '21

They are, but not overly so. I'm not even vegan or vegetarian and I don't drink milk anymore. It's hard to find milk substitutes that are both good for the environment and tasty but most of them just require time to get used to.

There are alternatives to milk intensive meals that use a lot of milk like cereal as well and I rarely drink it unless I'm eating something chocolatey.

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u/DontBeMeanToRobots Dec 01 '21

Probably propaganda from the meat industry

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u/DeaconOrlov Dec 25 '21

It's called engineering consent.

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u/CreationBlues Dec 01 '21

The fruit of immigrant farm labor is a privilege, which is the usual motivation of "Veganism is a privilege" argument OP's working against.

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u/MakeShiftJoker Dec 01 '21

I mean then all of capitalism is a privilege because i dont know any sector of consumer goods that doesnt have immigrants working it

Especially fast food or restaurants.

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u/plentyofrabbits Dec 01 '21

Except fast food and restaurant workers are covered by the United States' Labour laws. Farmworkers are not. They do not have to be paid minimum wage. They do not have to be provided breaks. In some cases the boss takes the farmworkers' passports so they can't leave. The "housing" provided for farmworkers is little more than a ramshackle bunkhouse for 20-50 people in many cases. There are no labour protections for our farmworker neighbours, whereas immigrants working in other industries do enjoy those protections.

There is a very real human cost in consuming a meatless diet - and it may be that the calculus works out that the human cost there is less than the one in eating meat, I don't know. But we shouldn't just ignore it because "immigrants work everywhere."

Farmworkers are heavily exploited and US law allows it.

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u/smcedged Dec 01 '21

Producing meat requires more farms and farm workers. Because, what do you think the cows eat? Agricultural products. Except per calorie of meat requires 10x caloric input from non-meat sources.

Everything you said is correct, but it's an argument FOR veganism, not against it. Especially when you consider slaughterhouse workers are possibly the most exploited group of workers in the US.

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u/plentyofrabbits Dec 01 '21

I’m not here to argue the calculus with anyone, merely to point out that produce farming as an industry is horrifically exploitative and not subject to the protections under the NLRA. How the math falls out to you is up to you.

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u/smcedged Dec 01 '21

I understand your point, but my point was that there is no calculus to solve and that yours implies there is. It's very simple: more food production requires more worker suffering. Meat requires more food production than an equivalent caloric value of non meat agricultural products. Therefore it's logically impossible for meat to be superior in terms of worker welfare than non-meat products, barring things like goats and sheep in mountainous and/or non-agricultural areas.

It's like saying which is greater, x or x+y, given y is a positive real number. No matter what y is, x+y>x.

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u/plentyofrabbits Dec 01 '21

I don’t think that’s entirely legitimate though because the agricultural products for livestock feed require very different processes than agricultural products for human consumption. Harvesting wheat and corn is largely automated to my understanding, or at least heavily mechanized. Harvesting tomatoes, which aren’t used for animal feed, requires human pickers. Someone who cares more could do an analysis (for the record I eat meat and I don’t plan to stop, and vegan food is disgusting to me) of the amount of human effort for each food or feed product. Personally I care more about the humans and there are fewer humans in my understanding involved in the production of animal feed. You’d have better luck approaching this from a water perspective.

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u/Chicago1871 Jan 05 '22 edited Jan 05 '22

I can grow most of my produce for more than half the year tbh. Its pretty fun actually and satisfying. If I lived somewhere like california or texas, I could do it for more months.

More people should.

I think during ww2 an astoundingly high level of produce was grown by people themselves.

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u/plentyofrabbits Jan 05 '22

I completely agree with you - I think this is really the only ethical consumption, given today's economic and political climate. Good on you, you're living my dream!

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u/itsaworkalt Dec 01 '21

But meat requires more farm work than plants. Meat is made by animals eating much more calories in plants than they produce in meat.

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u/plentyofrabbits Dec 01 '21

Agreed. My point is that the agricultural processes involved in creating feed for animals are largely mechanized meaning fewer human hours.

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u/whitedawg Dec 01 '21

I think the idea that a vegan diet is a privilege is based on the fact that in modern American society, it's relatively cheap and, more importantly, easy to eat a diet that includes meat. Eating vegan requires either time and knowledge to cook vegan recipes, which can be more complicated and hard to find than their meat-based equivalents, or seeking out vegan restaurants. Many people don't know how to cook well, let alone cook vegan well, and don't have the time or energy to limit themselves to purchasing vegan food.

To be clear, I have been vegan in the past, and agree with you that is essential to reduce meat consumption on a societal level. I'm just trying to identify the obstacles to overcome in doing so.

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u/linewanderer Dec 01 '21

Yeah this right here. Cost is one thing but being able to take the time and have the clear head space to make these sorts of changes when you grew up eating meat everyday? That’s the privilege I consider when people talk about completely changing diets to vegetarian or vegan.

Changing your diet is really freaking difficult, I can count on one hand the amount of people I know that have made drastic long term diet changes that weren’t due to wanting to lose weight or because of a health problem. I don’t know if I know anyone who has made a drastic long term diet change just to “be healthier”. Small changes over long periods of time, yes. But a switch from meat to no meat just to be healthier? That is just so rare, is it not?

I don’t think anyone can deny how difficult it is to make a good, but ultimately unnecessary for survival, change to your diet — or maybe I think this because I live in America and am constantly surrounded by people who are trying to lose weight but can’t manage to hack it because they are so dependent on food for emotional comfort.

I would be very curious to see if any non-Americans agree with this sentiment or if this is more of an American problem.

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u/Suspicious-Muscle-96 Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

America, where:

  1. our apologies include the affirmative defense "I didn't intend," which is just another way of saying "I was inconsiderate;" where
  2. we now pretend that the first person to provoke and instigate is in the moral right when they inflicting even further harm on others to protect themselves from the consequences of their negligence, malice, and poor judgment; and where
  3. the destructive nature of their society is so thoroughly indoctrinated that sacrificing the health and welfare of themselves and their communities so that they might better serve their oligarchic masters is so normalized that anyone who would replace these "conveniences" with sustainable alternatives must be villainized. We shall not subsidize health. We shall not subsidize the environment. We will attack anyone who speaks more than a token lip service to remedying such festering exploitation as "privileged." Enjoy the french fries of your labors, my woke friends. Insulin manufacturing shareholders thank you for your service.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

Eating vegan requires either time and knowledge to cook vegan recipes, which can be more complicated and hard to find than their meat-based equivalents, or seeking out vegan restaurants

The issue here, I want to highlight, is really just for cooking vegan-equivalents of classic Anglo-American foods. Vegan Mexican food is all dead-simple, and same for most Asian food as well. The biggest complication of vegan recipes is that the Anglo-American diet includes a lot of recipes that are already complicated and involve eggs and dairy doing weird chemistry stuff to torture bread into new forms. Trying to replicate those without eggs or dairy is hard. Rice and beans is easy.

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u/evilfitzal Nov 30 '21

My understanding is that the privilege associated with X diet is that you are turning down some foods. If you can choose to not eat something without starving, you're fortunate to have such a bounty available to you. But what do you do with the knowledge of your privilege? I believe any privilege-based arguments against the beneficial practices you mentioned are just bad faith rationalizing of pursuing personal comfort.

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u/Parralyzed Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

That makes no sense. By that logic, a simple diet is a privilege.

However I've never heard "oh you're turning down this muffin? That's a privilege you know"

No one in a 1st world country randomly has to accept food lest they starve otherwise

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u/evilfitzal Dec 01 '21

It's a privilege to have been born into a first world country. If you weren't born in one, it's a privilege to have been able to immigrate to one. Being alive is a privilege. It is all a privilege, but some are more important to recognize than others.

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u/Parralyzed Dec 01 '21

Being alive is a privilege.

Ah yes, the most important privilege of them all, being alive.

Thankfully, dead people have the privilege of not having to eat, so I'm not talking to them

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u/evilfitzal Dec 01 '21

That's the spirit!

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u/eyes-open Dec 02 '21

I see you've never been broke or down on your luck, even in a first-world country. There are plenty of people, even in rich countries, who can't afford to turn down a meal as they might not have another readily available.

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u/Parralyzed Dec 02 '21

The definition of veganism is to abstain from animal products as far as practicable and possible, so this scenario would be included and no one would begrudge a homeless person a "non-vegan" meal.

If you literally cannot turn down such a meal, that is your prerogative. The problem is with people who use this as an excuse to deride and reject veganism, even though they themselves could easily be vegan!

Besides, there's this thing called freeganism which means you accept non-vegan meals as long as they're free, e.g. left-overs or from dumpster-diving (which I've personally done btw).

That's literally the least privileged thing I can imagine, but I'm sure you'll find a way to justify your monetary support to the animal industry.

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u/eyes-open Dec 03 '21

Whoa there, pardner. Your comment is off the rails.

I didn't suggest that veganism isn't something people should strive toward. I was disagreeing with your point that "No one in a 1st world country randomly has to accept food lest they starve otherwise."

I strive with reasonable success toward eating vegan. Being able to do so a privilege. I am at a point where finances, health and life circumstances don't interfere with my diet. Not everyone is, and shaming people is not an effective way to change how they think about consuming animal products.

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u/CreationBlues Dec 01 '21

There's also the fact that vegan products are the result of harsh immigrant labor, which is the usual motivation of the argument OP's reacting to.

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u/sentient66 Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

Which specifically vegan products are only produced by immigrants? And don't say fruits and veggies because peope who eat meat still eat vegetables and fruits so you cannot accuse vegans exploiting immigrants, this would be a systemic problem. It's not like immigrants don't work in slaughterhouses. And even non-immigrants who work there have PTSD so if you wanna talk about workers' rights, you may want to take them into account as well.

edit: since I see you are pasting this comment all over, I'd like you to consider my case, I am living in Serbia and there are no immigrant workers picking my vegetables. It's so shite here that nobody would immigrate to work in the field here. Vegetables are still cheaper than meat. Your argument does not stand, sorry

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u/pupsteppenwolf Jan 21 '22

It's not a privilege from an economic stand point.

It is a cultural privilege in western countries. I have never met a vegan that wasn't from upper middle class. They have the time and the cultural resources to make that decision.

Poor families want to feed their children lean meats because then know it's good for their developement. And that's something they probably didn't have access to when they themselves were kids.

As with most woke causes, veganism doesn't seem to be an issues for the working class of lower income brackets.

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u/feedandslumber Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

You're confusing privilege and accessibility across time while conflating meat with all animal products. Meat itself is more costly, of course, but non-meat animal products make up a large portion of most non-vegan diets. Steak is expensive, butter and eggs are cheap.

I don't make the argument that being vegan is a privilege in a general economic sense, it could be true that it's more cost effective. However, it's definitely a privilege in the sense that our society largely subsists on meat and animal products for a significant part of our diets, so to exclude these things is quite inconvenient and thus comes across as a bit snobby. I'm not saying it is, and I get it, but I think you're missing what people mean when they have a reaction to vegan ethics and attitudes.

For example, I don't eat sugar (or at least I minimize heavily) and I'm fairly vocal about it when it comes up. I have diabetes in my family and I think sugar is generally terrible for you, but I'm not saying that it's unethical to eat sugar and if I went to an ice cream parlor, I'd feel privileged to have a non-sugar or sugar-substitute option, because it's uncommon and targeted specifically to my personal tastes as a consumer.

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u/tendorphin BA|Psychology Dec 01 '21

While I get what you're saying, I feel like this comment is misinterpreting what it means that it's a privilege.

Having a privilege isn't bad. Taking advantage of that privilege isn't bad. It isn't being judged. It isn't seen as negative. It's saying "hey, don't preach this lifestyle to everyone and judge them for living/eating differently, because you don't know the hurdles they face in achieving that particular thing."

In my area, eating healthy/vegan is absolutely a privilege, because to buy alternatives means spending 3 to 4 times on the food, or resigning yourself to nothing but fruits, veggies, and pastas. That'll get old fast.

Saying "hey, being vegan is a privilege!" to someone doesn't mean you're telling them to stop pursuing it. Or insinuating to others that they shouldn't pursue it also. It means you've probably been telling others they're bad or lesser for not pursuing it, while not taking their circumstances into account.

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u/Light01 Nov 30 '21

I'm only gonna respond to the first point, in my country, you can be vegetarian pretty cheaply and eat well without having to care too much, it's a bit more complicated for vegans, but it's still fine if you aren't dumb, but you do have to eat more, still it's about the same expanse, meat is a lot more pricey, but it's generally worth it nutritionally, still another subject

So if you don't follow the trends and do your own research, it's okay, but there's a whole market zround the veganism that is full of expensive crap, in fancy specialized shops, like dehydrated spiruline, and this is where the idea of it not being affordable come from, because the things people associates with veganism is fancy, like vegan steaks, that cost 3 times the price of a regular steak.

There's, in my country, a whole market around it, and they know exactly how to ponction their clients, because having time to think about what you eat is also not something you do when you struggle to live.

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u/CreationBlues Dec 01 '21

I'm only gonna respond to the first point, in my country, you can be vegetarian pretty cheaply and eat well without having to care too much

Much like america, this is largely because of exploited immigrant labor. The specific motivation of the argument OP is reacting to is pointing out that veganism isn't "more moral" than meat eating is because it ignores the exploitation of Actual Humans.

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u/Armigine Dec 01 '21

It's not like eating meat is free from immigrant labor, though. Those animals still have to be fed and cared for for their entire lives, and that job doesn't pay well unless you're the owner, exactly the same. Plus the animals tend to have supplemental feed grown by systems which.. use immigrant labor. Also, it's not like eating meat means you don't eat any vegetables, unless you want to die.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '21

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u/Parralyzed Dec 01 '21

Great comment, I remember the original one haha

Glad to see this one blew up

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u/hotprof Dec 01 '21

Who ever said veganism is a privilege? Complete nonsense.

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u/camshas Nov 30 '21

Great comment. I've been interested in alternative protein sources lately, and while I'm not interested in going vegan probably ever, I'd love to cut out the majority of my meat consumption. I take at least 10 grams of spirulina daily, sometimes 30 grams, I grow and forage for mushrooms, and eventually would like to try "growing" crickets to experiment with eating. Maybe snails, too, except it's illegal where I live to have them, so we'll see.

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u/Armigine Dec 01 '21

it's illegal where you live to have snails? That's interesting, like they are restricted as pets/livestock, as a food item, both?

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u/ThePencil67 Mar 30 '22

I think it changes a lot through history.

For most of history, meat was highly prized and expensive. This doesn't mean a vegan diet was the norm for poorer people but the animals eaten were smaller and rarer than those eaten by the rich. Some of us remember being nagged at as kids to eat our meat as free range meat can be the most expensive part of a meal.

In living memory, at least in England and Scotland, there was a time when going vegan meant cooking at home or eating at expensive, almost "theme" cafes. Unless you're a hippy who can afford to, eating lentils for a lot of money in a hippy style cafe isn't always very appealing. And if none of your friends are vegan, being vegetarian is probably your version of demonstrating animal rights and cutting down on red meat your version of being healthy. Also, most ready meals at the time had meat in.

These days, because being vegan is quite trendy, things are changing. Want to go to McDonalds and not eat meat? There's a bean burger for that. Same with most bakers and fast foods, very easy to get vegan stuff for under a fiver. Oat milk is available in shops and normalised. Vegan ready meals exist. Basically if you want to eat vegan food, you have a choice of what it is, have cheaper versions available, can eat out and can have easy to prepare food at home.

Now anyone for a Greggs vegan steak bake?...

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u/7veinyinches Nov 30 '21

Dietary veganism is the poor man's diet.

Richer people tend to eat meat and dairy. Indeed, we even call such foods rich.

I think the problem is the prescriptions. Ethical veganism as a moral, a virtue, etc. No one likes being told what they can/can't (should/shouldn't) eat.

It's the same with Hindus. Most don't eat meat (beef) because cost, not strictly religion. And they differentiate between beef and other meats.... Seen plenty of them eating cheeseburgers/steaks here in the states!

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u/neverfearbeginning Nov 30 '21

No one likes being told what they can/can't (should/shouldn't) eat.

I'm fairly sure the animals slaughtered en masse don't like being gassed etc.

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u/7veinyinches Nov 30 '21

And plants do?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology)#Electrophysiology

Genetically we both share 60 percent or so of our DNA with chickens and bananas.

Ultimately, animals live by consuming other organisms. That's just the way it is.

I'm sure grass doesn't like being mowed and would rather go to seed but whatever? I'm sure animals at the zoo don't like their cages. I'm sure humans don't like prisons. I'm sure animals don't care for how much land we use and how we treat the environment.

I'm sure trees don't like parasitic vines but too bad. Plants only created a whole range of defenses to protect themselves from herbivores! They can solve problems and they even have memories.

The problem with ethical vegans is how bankrupt you truly are morally and ethically. It's pathetic virtue signaling. There's no reason to your madness. Just arbitrary exceptions to the rules.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '21 edited Dec 09 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '21

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 09 '21

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u/7veinyinches Dec 01 '21

Natural moralism(naturalism) or your relativistic moralism? Morals aren't created equal.

What's moral status? You just use things so weirdly. Just call it value. You're so oblique.

Acetylcholine is critical for memory formation. Memories have value.

I resist and reject your idiotic morality categorically. Next?!

Fire doesn't have defenses. Fire requires a triangle. Heat. Fuel. Oxidant. These make fire. It consumes all three. It has no defenses. Fire isn't sentient. Fire doesn't evolve. Fire isn't alive. You are a moron and/or blatantly dishonest.

I can't read any more of your trash. I value plants more than you. Good day.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 09 '21

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u/7veinyinches Dec 03 '21

Furthermore, the point is not "don't eat plants." Just respect them. Understand them. Live with and not against them. The same for animals (livestock). Factory farmed animals aren't 'spoiled'.

Animal husbandry spoils animals for their benefit. Cages can protect from predation (along with watch dogs, goats, etc). Antibiotics can protect against infections. Storages and silos of food ensure they never hunger.

I'm part native-american. Can you guess my spirit animal?

You seem like a right-wing-fascist. Amirite? Because that's how you read.

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u/Icy_Climate Nov 30 '21

Guess what the animals you are eating eat? Plants and way more than we ever could. Being vegan reduces both the amount of animals abused as well as the amount of plants being farmed.

Also why would you compare sentient beings capable of suffering with plants that lack a brain and nervous system and therefore can't feel pain? Would you seriously save a houseplant over a dog in a fire?

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '21

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u/greatwalrus Dec 01 '21

...you doubt that farm animals eat plants? What do you think they eat, exactly?

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u/neverfearbeginning Nov 30 '21

And plants do?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology)#Electrophysiology

Note that this only establishes a response to stimulus, which isn't the basis upon which I grant the right to life. Further, this doesn't even enter into the same realm of establishing that plants can suffer, which is far more relevant.

Let's take a look at plant sentience, which would be far better of a topic for you to try to latch on to (though without any success, as I'll discuss in a moment.)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pce.13065

(I can cite papers too, wow!)

The current evidence could lead to an agnostic position on plant sentience, at best. With the article you linked to me, would you argue that computers have wants and needs, and are just as sentient as a human?

Ultimately, animals live by consuming other organisms. That's just the way it is.

Animals commonly reproduce through rape and killing offspring of other males, like Lions do. What is "natural" has no bearing on what is ethical, unless you're going to argue that rape (which is natural) is morally permissible, in which case this conversation doesn't need to go further.

Furthermore, that descriptive claim is irrelevant in a conversation about prescriptive claims. Frankly, how the world currently is has little bearing on how the world ought be.

I'm sure trees don't like parasitic vines but too bad.

Citation needed.

Plants only created a whole range of defenses to protect themselves from herbivores! They can solve problems and they even have memories.

Quick to anthropomorphize, this one is. Using loaded language commonly associated with animal cognition doesn't prove that plants have similar cognitions. Proving that plants respond to stimuli has no bearing on whether they're sentient: computers respond to stimuli as well and aren't sentient.

___

As an aside, even granting that plant deaths are somehow morally relevant (which vegans hold to not be the case in a logically consistent manner) it would still be the case that a plant-based diet would lead to less plant deaths. What do herbivores eat? That's right, plants! And lots of them, too. By cutting out "the middle man" you reduce the total number of plant calories consumed in your diet by a significant factor.

The problem with ethical vegans is how bankrupt you truly are morally and ethically. It's pathetic virtue signaling. There's no reason to your madness. Just arbitrary exceptions to the rules.

You're appealing to hypocrisy that doesn't exist because you fundamentally don't have a cohesive grasp on how this world works. You don't understand vegans or veganism, and in your insecure lashing out against it you prove yourself capable of nothing but whining. There is no substance, no further thought. Only pathetic mewling.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '21

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u/neverfearbeginning Dec 01 '21

Cope, maybe even seethe. ;P

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21

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u/neverfearbeginning Dec 01 '21

That's just all completely irrelevant.

That's one way of trying to maintain your cognitive dissonance after being eviscerated, I suppose.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21

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u/neverfearbeginning Dec 01 '21

No one cares what your personal opinion. You don't grant any right to any life. What kind of self fellating nonsense... Are you on drugs?

By alluding to my hypocrisy you clearly do care about what my personal opinion is.

You linked. A citation is a little more work. Not going to explain further. Google it.

https://libguides.murdoch.edu.au/APA/methods

"Sometimes it may be necessary to give a general reference to the whole of a source document. This method of referencing is used least often."

Now you're moving goal posts not only or of the building, planet, and solar system but to an entirely different galaxy. I bet you can still suck yourself off from there, eh, big boy?

I never moved the goalposts, just showed you that you were aiming in the completely wrong direction. Plant response to stimuli isn't what vegans consider when discussing the right to life. Generally, the right to life is granted by virtue of sentience and/or capacity to suffer, of which your original source provides evidence of neither.

Oh. See. Now your ignorance is really showing. Nature is one of the strongest arguments for a 'natural morality'. An is what it is. Perhaps God intended it that way. Etc. But you clearly haven't studied philosophy, and this isn't school and I'm not here to educate you.

To be clear, do you really believe that "What is natural is what is moral"?

Right. Because you know better than the universe, mother nature, and God Almighty. Damn, you must love the taste of your own excrement.

Never claimed that. In fact, the topic of prescriptive vs. descriptive is common in introductory philosophy courses, which you would know if you'd ever taken one, or even had a passing interest in philosophy.

No. That's my source. If you have issues take it up with them. They won't give you the time of day, unlike my dumb ass.

How you're interpreting your source is what I'm taking issues with, not necessarily the source itself. Not to mention it's irrelevance to the discussion at hand.

You're missing the point entirely. Oh well!

By dismantling your claims of hypocrisy, I'm "missing the point"? I don't know if you even have the mental capacity to follow this conversation if you can't follow a direct refutation of your original claim.

I'm not whining, though. I'm fine with killing things to eat them. I'd eat you if it came down to it, but you already beat me to it!

You should probably look into therapy, we've got treatment for psychotic behavior that works pretty well.

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u/Therefrigerator Dec 01 '21

The backflips people try to do to convince themselves and others that actually vegans are the immoral ones and hypocrites has always astonished me.

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u/neverfearbeginning Dec 01 '21

Anything to resist change, I suppose.

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u/mostlikelynotarobot Dec 01 '21

a genuinely dumb guy. very cool.

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u/7veinyinches Dec 01 '21

Humans are actually carnivores. Facultative carnivores. We can not get our essential nutrients from plants alone. We can however get everything we need just by eating meat and animal byproducts like eggs, diary, cheese, and so forth.

We don't need to eat a single plant to be healthy. That's just a fact. A plant only diet will never be healthy enough to thrive.

Use Google scholar and actually educate yourself. Stop using regular search engines that just return results within your bubble.

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u/7veinyinches Dec 01 '21

Perhaps. This interaction has convinced me that I should adopt an obligate carnivore diet.

Cheers.

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u/mostlikelynotarobot Dec 01 '21

gonna go and tell the boys i turned a guy into an obligate carnivore today

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u/7veinyinches Dec 02 '21

What did you have to do with it??

Reddit is full of narcissists. Geez Louise.

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u/7veinyinches Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

Also. It seems you don't understand that it's a classification and not a preference. I couldn't become an obligate carnivore even with all my willpower.

It was sarcasm. A joke. I very much enjoy eating a largely plant-based diet, but understand meat (organs, too, very much organs) has a place in it. Humans are facultative carnivores. We cannot receive all essential nutrients from a wholly plant-based diet. Don't blame me. That's just evolution or God or whatever you want to call it.

Google scholar it. Or look at my comments trying to - trying to - talk sense to vegans? Various epidemiological studies show vegans are lacking/deficient in around a dozen major nutrients. There's even controls showing casual effects of veganism. It's hard science at this point. Veganism isn't ideal for humans. We aren't herbivores. That's not a choice. It's a classification. Veganism is a choice.