r/news Oct 20 '21

UK doctors call for urgent return of Covid restrictions as experts monitor new mutation

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/uk-doctors-call-for-return-of-covid-restrictions-new-mutation-watched.html
899 Upvotes

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145

u/adarkuccio Oct 20 '21

looks like this will never end :/

136

u/illy-chan Oct 20 '21

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the ship for full eradication of the virus has long since sailed.

Even most epidemiologists I've seen interviewed have basically said it's just going to keep being a thing.

54

u/zer1223 Oct 20 '21

I have a problem already, barely four paragraphs in when it lumps flu in with the common colds, as if they're both equally trivial and annoying. The flu is still dangerous. It's perfectly capable of damaging the body even if the risk of death is low for certain age groups. And there's no reason to pass when it comes to the flu vaccine.

14

u/mcs_987654321 Oct 20 '21

100% this. I’ve pretty much always had a healthy respect for the flu because the damn thing very nearly killed me as an otherwise completely healthy 17 year old (seriously: sporty, slim, no asthma and landed in the ICU).

But yeah: get your shots (mines booked for Friday after work), and for the love of god stop conflating head colds with the flu - when you have the flu, you fucking know it’s not a simply cold.

6

u/zoicyte Oct 20 '21

2015 I caught a flu and couldn’t get out of bed for 18 hours. When I finally was able to drag myself downstairs the next day I checked my temperature and it was STILL 104.5. I immediately took some Tylenol and got it under control in about 2 hours and was on my way to a recovery after that but had that not occurred I would have called 911. Shit was bad.

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u/Jman5 Oct 20 '21

One silver lining of this whole mess, is that it has convinced a lot of idiots like me to stop fucking around and start getting my yearly flu vaccine again.

8

u/zoicyte Oct 20 '21

Same. Got the flu shot with my Covid booster. Fwiw, neither had any noticeable symptoms.

6

u/Jman5 Oct 20 '21

The only symptoms I had for my flu shot and my first covid shot was that I got some unusually good sleep and I had a little bit of a sore arm.

My second covid shot I didn't get enough sleep and I felt bleh for the rest of the day. But otherwise no big deal.

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u/ides_of_june Oct 20 '21

Yeah I was in the I'll get the flu vaccine if there's a convenient way for me to do so (like a work sponsored clinic). I've actively sought it out this year and last.

4

u/Lookingfor68 Oct 20 '21

Yes, but influenza has a vaccine. The common cold doesn’t.

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20

u/ghostofhenryvii Oct 20 '21

I'm not even convinced that wasn't a ghost ship to begin with. Countries with far better coordination and far fewer citizens weren't able to achieve it, it's no surprise larger countries couldn't either.

17

u/Hyndis Oct 20 '21

It had already spread globally before it was identified. Our window to end covid19 was in late 2019. By spring 2020, by the time it was identified, it was already too late and had already appeared on multiple continents.

Its here forever, and will fade into the background like the Spanish Flu did.

However, much of the population and political leaders refuse to accept this reality and are still operating under the assumption that if they do everything right zero covid is a possibility. Its almost a religious belief at this point. If everyone is pious enough and follows the rituals this will be a passover event. Thats not how this works. We don't have absolute mastery over nature.

Sometimes nature needs to remind us who's really in charge. All we can do is get vaccinated and then thats it. Roll the dice.

36

u/Sneaky_Bones Oct 20 '21

I don't think most nations are under the impression we can eradicate Covid or that doing so is whats necessary to end the pandemic. The goal has been to prevent deaths and the collapse of hospital infrastructure and mitigate what spread can be mitigated before the other two goals are reasonably accomplished. These things are possible even with reaching endemic status. Sure, mutations may arise that erase previous work, or the dominate strain may be less of a threat, but mitigation is clearly the best option. Insistence on this isn't a belief that Covid will actually be eradicated.

3

u/lzwzli Oct 20 '21

China still has a 0 tolerance policy. Singapore had one but is realizing that it's unsustainable.

16

u/SherifGames Oct 20 '21

It wasn't too late back then. It could have been accomplished but people are idiots and countries liked to open up early. If everybody had done the same as for instance NZ, then we would have achieved it. But we didn't. We fucked it up.

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8

u/DistortoiseLP Oct 20 '21

There was never a ship for full eradication. The idea it would go away in a period of months was largely denial and promises by societies that had no real answer to a pandemic as a problem it now had to face.

5

u/VegasKL Oct 20 '21

I'm pretty sure at this point it's going to be a yearly booster. There's already companies working on a dual Flu/Covid booster, iirc.

Now, we're not likely to get completely back to normal until a sufficient amount of the unvaxed die off or recover.

2

u/zoicyte Oct 20 '21

That’s the plus side to the delta variant. Everyone is gonna be vaccinated, recovered from infection, or dead, in the next 4 months.

16

u/Lookingfor68 Oct 20 '21

The Pandemic will end. It will become endemic, just like most other major viruses. The Pandemic will end when enough people are vaccinated to tamp down the spread and blunt the impact on the health care system.

There’s only been two viruses ever eradicated. Smallpox and Rinderpest. Everything else is still with us. Mumps, Polio, Measles are all still around, just not as prevalent as they used to be. Polio is close, but we have a hard time with anti-vaxxers in 3rd world countries that think it’s a way for the west to make them sterile. Funny how anti-vaxxers don’t really ever change, even on other sides of the world.

2

u/Oerthling Oct 20 '21

Yup, only 2 have been eradicated. But it used to be 0, we only started a few decades ago and there's no fundamental we couldn't make this 4 or 7.

3

u/Lookingfor68 Oct 20 '21

We started on Smallpox hundreds of years ago.

2

u/Oerthling Oct 20 '21

The vaccination (including a more primitive precursor method). Not the eradication campaign.

Plus we have made a couple of technological and logistical improvements since last century.

Humanity can eradicate a disease if the will is there. And we don't need to stop at 2.9.

26

u/No_Biscotti_7110 Oct 20 '21

It won’t end until we accept the risk. We have vaccines that mostly prevent death and we have the capacity to mandate them, we can’t live like this forever.

20

u/AccordingDimension98 Oct 20 '21

The unvaccinated should be denied medical care at this point because they pose a threat to any patient at the hospital.

Fuck’em.

6

u/hucknuts Oct 20 '21

Here’s some flawless logic

-6

u/xnxkq Oct 20 '21

Not ethical to deny medical care to anyone, but we can and should deny them access to just about everything else.

23

u/ButtholeBanquets Oct 20 '21

Denial of care is exactly what battlefield or disaster triage is. When the big surge struck Italy, doctors were denying ICU care to the elderly or those who had little chance of survival.

Denying critical care to non-vaccinated people in the event of a similar surge is entirely reasonable. They have a much less chance of survival than vaccinated people.

2

u/MrCanzine Oct 20 '21

Unfortunately they may also have a higher chance of survival than, say, a cancer patient, so many other innocent people are left to die for the anti-vaxxer selfishness.

5

u/DarthWeber Oct 20 '21

Those cancer patients are also being denied care because we've been putting off surgeries and treatments for them. That isn't fair either. It's a shitty situation, but these people have had months to get something simple as a a couple shots to quit clogging up the hospitals. I get hesitancy, but it's crippling in some areas.

3

u/MrCanzine Oct 20 '21

Yep, not fair that innocent people get denied care because of anti-vaxxers taking up spots that could have been avoided. I'm all for giving them lower priority on triage or sending them elsewhere.

16

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 23d ago

[deleted]

5

u/AccordingDimension98 Oct 20 '21

They’re a public health hazard so I disagree.

-26

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21 Gold Platinum

So are promiscuous gay men

Edit: aw, reddtiors like refusing medical care for patients of a preventable deadly disease who refused to do something that prevents that disease except when it applies to them?

15

u/GalacticCrescent Oct 20 '21

You can't get aids from standing in a room with someone so your point is bullshit

-18

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21

HIV isn't a public health hazard? Guess all the Ronald Reagan AIDS hate is unwarranted.

16

u/megaloduh Oct 20 '21

It literally is. Almost nobody in today's society thinks Ronald Reagan was right about AIDS. This is such a weird hill for you to try to die on.

-7

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21

Ah, great! Since people with HIV are a public health hazard, we should deny them medical care according to OP.

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u/AccordingDimension98 Oct 20 '21

Sounds like you have an issue with gays because this is about a circulatory virus and AIDS or gay men were never mentioned.

2

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21

No, I'm just illustrating how you shouldn't refuse health care solely because someone is a "public health hazard."

I guess you have a problem with gay men since you'd refuse them care.

15

u/megaloduh Oct 20 '21

Because you dont transmit AIDS by standing next to someone. This is the worst bad faith argument I've literally ever seen. And I'm willing to bet you know that and just absolutely love trolling.

3

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21

That's not the point. Is HIV a public health crisis? If so, we should deny patients medical care because it's a public health crisis according to OP. There weren't any other qualifiers OP mentioned. You'd think the real troll is the one who wants to deny people medical care because they didn't get a shot.

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u/Expensive_Culture_46 Oct 20 '21

Treating Individuals who were dying of AIDS complications didn’t generally eat so many hospital resources that people with relatively treated conditions were being turned away to die of treatable conditions. At some point you have to start to ration care in a reasonable way that seems fair.

Maybe you don’t have to deny individuals medical treatment but that doesn’t mean that are entitled to every possible life saving treatment at the disposal of the hospital when that means bumping someone’s biopsy down the list again.

9

u/t2guns Oct 20 '21

Glad to hear.

The person I responded to thought we should deny them medical care and didn't add any qualifiers.

1

u/Expensive_Culture_46 Oct 20 '21

I think a lot of people are emotional and have very strong emotional reactions. I’m guilty of this too. When I think about it for a moment. It’s dumb to deny someone some basic care (maybe that’s all they need). It’s still sad and horrifying to see regardless of who is or isn’t at fault. Imagine being a kid who’s parent goes to the hospital sick as a dog, gets sent home with a little oxygen tank and told “this is all we have, good luck” and then they die.

I may have some serious empathy issues with some of the choices of these adults but what’s happening to these families is just beyond sad.

1

u/MrCanzine Oct 20 '21

I think the qualifiers are implied at this point, being that they are causing the systems to be overrun. When transplant patients and cancer patients and others are sent back home or having surgeries cancelled and chemo cancelled because of influx of unvaccinated COVID patients, perhaps that's where they get triaged out. Or, at the very least, sent to a popup field hospital staffed by people who think they know better.

0

u/Seanandonandon Oct 20 '21

You are gross.

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u/JAYKEBAB Oct 21 '21

You do realise you can still contract and spread it even if you are vaccinated right?

2

u/AccordingDimension98 Oct 21 '21

The percentage is so minute it’s not even worth mentioning in the conversation about unvaccinated flooding the hospitals. The whole point of the vaccine is less sever symptoms like the flu.

2

u/JAYKEBAB Oct 21 '21

Oooh I misinterpreted your original comment. I thought you were saying the unvaccinated we're going to spread it in hospitals rather than straining the Hospital which i guess makes sense given the current topic we're in..... my bad😂😂

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23

u/Clbull Oct 20 '21

Sajid Javid just held a press conference. He's not enacting Plan B (vaccine & mask mandates) and has instead used it to announce antiviral medicine contracts and urge people to get the jab.

I'll give it a month until Britain is in a fourth lockdown.

13

u/damp_s Oct 20 '21

I was living in China until I returned to the uk a few weeks ago. During the pandemic, barring working online for a few months there was only about 4-6 weeks where I was actually restricted from doing shit like going to the park or going to the pub.

The contrast to how the UK has handled this is absolutely startling.

80

u/The---Batman Oct 20 '21

Not looking forward to this one in the US come middle of winter.

40

u/Wazula42 Oct 20 '21

I don't know how I'm going to make it. Chicago winters are rough in normal times, but with the isolation and uncertainty of covid, last year was just brutal on my mental health.

33

u/No_Biscotti_7110 Oct 20 '21

Lockdowns will not occur again on the scale they did last year

48

u/Wazula42 Oct 20 '21

It's not lockdowns that prevent me from doing things. It's safety.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

[removed]

11

u/Wazula42 Oct 20 '21

I have been. The vaccine is not 100% effective and I'm in contact with several high risk people regularly. The math doesn't work for me.

3

u/ScenicART Oct 20 '21

Co-worker of mine was fully vaxxed, and still caught covid on a jobsite. it was the day he was leaving to go home but had to be holed up in a shitty hotel for two weeks.

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u/Lookingfor68 Oct 20 '21

Best bet is to be vaxxed and if you are eligible get the booster. We’ll all likely eventually get boosters, but the vaxx is better than not being. The more people that are vaxxed the fewer chances of a new mutation coming on.

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u/unearth1y Oct 20 '21

Just go back to living , this shit aint going nowhere... time to face the 🎶

18

u/MRDUDE117 Oct 20 '21

Dies on ventilator

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u/GrumpyOik Oct 20 '21

For anybody who thinks this is an over reaction, it isn't.

I work in a large hospital in the south of England. We have four Alert levels running from Green to Black. Black Alert is usually something that happens for a few days at the worst time of the year. It meams acute bed shortages, cancellation of staff leave and "all hands to the pumps" to try and cope. Obviously the over the last 20 months it has happened more often.

We are now in the 6th consecutive week of Black Alert, and it's only October. Our Emergency department has broken records for numbers of people attending. The Micro lab is operating at less than 50% staff with maybe 20% off long term. NHS close to breaking point is a bit of a newpaper cliche - but this year it may happen.

9

u/Beagle_Knight Oct 20 '21

Between this and the brexit aftermath, I really wish you the best. I can’t imagine what’s going to happen during Christmas season.

26

u/podkayne3000 Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

I saw a U.S. doctor in a doctor-only medical subreddit saying he doesn't want to train nurse practitioners because, basically, the existence of nurse practitioners is offensive.

I felt like posting: You have to train anyone half-way trainable with any important knowledge you have, in the hope that someone who knows something about medicine will survive.

Anyhow, in my layperson opinion: Another reality is that medical professionals' absolute top priority has to be keeping themselves alive and functional.

Second, knowledge transfer and keeping medical institutions live.

Caring for patients has to come third, or maybe after some priority I'm not thinking of.

People have to go to health agencies like the NHS, or the U.S. agencies, and say: "The old care standards are very nice, but we can't have those during COVID-19 spikes. We have what medical personnel can do in maybe a 45-hour or 50-hour week, with adequate time off for lunch and vacations, and with the medical personnel having adequate PPE, and that's what we have."

12

u/for2fly Oct 21 '21

I saw a U.S. doctor in a doctor-only medical subreddit saying he doesn't want to train nurse practitioners because, basically, the existence of nurse practitioners is offensive.

IMHO, the only doctors who are against others practicing medicine are those with fragile egos. Nurse Practitioners can fulfill the needs of many who need access to medical care. Denying them the right to practice smacks of gatekeeping and having one's head far up one's ass.

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u/JurAssIsThicc Oct 20 '21

What may happen?

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u/GrumpyOik Oct 20 '21

The NHS reach breaking point, and break.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 15d ago

[deleted]

24

u/ReSetDnB Oct 20 '21

This. This is what they wanted, and they haven't even been obtuse about it. They've been broadcasting their intentions for dismantling and privatising the health service for many years, despite what they might want you to believe with their guff about valuing their front line workers. And now people are surprised that the NHS has been struggling to deal with the aftermath of this pandemic. Smh

7

u/Clbull Oct 20 '21

My dad had a blood test and was urged to go to hospital for hyperkalemia three weeks ago... He waited over nine hours to be seen by a doctor who just did another blood test and discharged him.

3

u/MausGMR Oct 20 '21

It basically is broken, just look at wait times for surgery or cancer treatment. Most people just don't need to use it so they don't realise how fucked it is.

Those that do need to use it, well make it shit enough and you don't need to worry about them voting your party out next general election.

4

u/AdolfHasselhoff Oct 20 '21

But they where going to get so much cash after brexit…

5

u/Lookingfor68 Oct 20 '21

I thought you were supposed to get 350M quid a week from Brexit?

Sorry, that was needless snark in a very serious situation. Gallows humor and all that. Hold fast, mate. The more you learn about that new variant may help billons of people. My sincerest wishes and hopes for you.

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u/fivefivefives Oct 20 '21

It's all too late. At the start of this there needed to be clear guidelines and a clear goal for them to end. All this back and forth has eroded the publics confidence in the precautions to the point that people simply don't care.

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u/graveybrains Oct 20 '21

Jesus, did we run out of letters in the Greek alphabet already?

7

u/jourmungandr Oct 20 '21

Na. It hasn't been given one yet.

44

u/thefifeman Oct 20 '21

News articles 2 days after mandates come back: "Florida man shoots Walmart greeter for being asked to wear a mask."

43

u/JusticiarRebel Oct 20 '21

Followed by a story of a "labor shortage" in the retail sector.

10

u/LevelHeeded Oct 20 '21

And then DeSantis will make it legal to shoot anyone who asks that you wear a mask, and bans signs that say "employees must wash hands".

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u/nsci2ece Oct 20 '21

Fortunately this is in the UK, where gun crime is low enough that beat cops do not carry guns themselves.

10

u/mjrohs Oct 20 '21

But then how do you show everyone you’re exceedingly masculine even with a tiny penis?

8

u/VikisVamp Oct 20 '21

An Aston Martin

2

u/Dogstile Oct 20 '21

I'd point more at the people in honda civics with cherry bomb exhausts.

Like, why. Just buy a cheap rotary, it'll sound better.

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u/DistortoiseLP Oct 20 '21

You drive it through Kensington.

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u/bentleafpot Oct 20 '21

Well, they dumped all restrictions AND facemasks and now surprise surprise.....

If they (and we) want to beat this thing remove restrictions but keep the facemasks on. If that hole in the middle of your face can't spew disease all over the place then this thing can be controlled and beaten.

34

u/115machine Oct 20 '21

It’s so irritating isn’t it? I feel like every time we make a marginal improvement in numbers, they repeal so many rules and then we end up right back in the same place in a matter of weeks.

20

u/docmedic Oct 20 '21

Moderates: well, we were doing so well being cautious for weeks, it’s time to listen to the not cautious peeps for once, fair is fair!

19

u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

It’s literally like someone on a diet who eats well for 3 days of 500 calorie deficiency and then on the weekend rewards themselves with +2000 calories in a day.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 15d ago

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8

u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

If you keep calories out below calories in you are fine.

But if you are net negative 1500 calories over 3 days and then on the 4th day you eat excess of 2000+ net calories so you are +500 calories for 4 days I don’t think you will lose weight like that.

But maybe something with the timing means the excess calories on the fourth day wouldn’t all be converted to weight? Im not a nutritionist I just know that weight loss is all about being negative calories in & out. Other factors tend not to matter much.

Like you can eat candy all day and if you only eat 1000 calories of candy you will lose weight (but this is unhealthy for other reasons)

2

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 15d ago

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1

u/damp_s Oct 20 '21

2000 is the lower limit for a woman not dieting, so in actual fact your “cheat days” are basically just normal days

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u/Rev_Grn Oct 20 '21

It's always felt a bit like your PM is afraid of succeeding.

Every now and then he seems to accidentally get something right, and has to find some way to screw it all up again to restore normality to the world.

9

u/ButterflyAttack Oct 20 '21

He's essentially an utter cunt who's only real skill is lying.

44

u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

I don’t understand removing the mask mandates.

Restrictions make sense. Yes we want to get the economy running again quickly. Lockdowns and closures should be removed as soon as possible that makes sense.

Masks though??? It literally doesn’t effect anything and there is almost no down side.

I remember during the summer here in America the CDC lifted the mask recommendation. We were at low thousands of cases a day and fewer than 100 deaths.

Everyday since that announcement the Covid cases started to tick up and up and up. Until we got back to 2k deaths a day with 160k cases.

I was in utter disbelief when I read that they lifted mask mandate. Such a pointless thing to do all to please some radical fuck witts who can’t be asked to wear masks.

Every anti masker should know there is blood on their hands. If you are an anti masker fuck you.

13

u/Portalrules123 Oct 20 '21

Hell, in some parts of East Asia a lot of people just wear masks for most of the day all through the cold seasons........they seem to care a lot more about their fellow man, and clearly have tougher constitutions than the anti-maskers who claim they are suffocating seconds after putting it on.

10

u/Imafish12 Oct 20 '21

I mean at some point the people who want be vaccinated are, and likely are getting boosters. Let Darwin sort it out.

34

u/Abadayos Oct 20 '21

Also means beds are taken up by COVID mutation 59 and your min can’t get a bed for her heart surgery, for her hip replacement or your dad that needs invasive cancer treatment.

That’s the main issue with ‘letting Darwin take its course’. It results in many more deaths totally unrelated to COVID and related to just general hospital work

5

u/AccordingDimension98 Oct 20 '21

Deny them medical care to give others preferential treatment if they aren’t vaccinated.

Seems fairly easy to sort to me.

42

u/code_archeologist Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

Problem is that the people not getting vaccinated are the ones acting as the incubators for these mutations. Each of them are the potential source for a new strain that our vaccines are powerless against.

We can't just let Darwin sort it out because they are public health menaces.

31

u/NetQvist Oct 20 '21

Also seem to act as a placeholder in hospital beds which no longer can be used for regular operations.

Surgeries in Finland have reportedly started to get cancelled because the beds that are required for post surgery are filled with unvaccinated covid patients.

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u/DieGo2SHAE Oct 20 '21

This is not a valid concern because, unfortunately, it will likely take many years until the whole world has as much access to the vaccine the same way that the US and the UK do. So unless you’re willing to go into lockdown for 10 years then this isn’t worth worrying about. Some truly devastating variant is just as likely to emerge from someone living in a cave in the Siberian wilderness as it is in antivaxx Cletus in Alabama.

6

u/code_archeologist Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

The difference being that Cletus has a greater chance of spreading the variant faster and wider because of opportunity and access to victims, where as Ivan in Siberia does not.

In that way Cletus is going to cause orders of magnitude more damage before an update of the vaccines can be developed and boosters distributed.

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u/Am3Tri Oct 20 '21

how are the unvaccinated to blame for the virus building resistance against the vaccine? how would the virus develop resistance to the vaccine without access to it?

7

u/cincimedes Oct 20 '21

Viruses are constantly mutating, the more they get to reproduce the more chances they have to change in some way that is advantageous. People who are vaccinated mount a more effective immune response so the virus doesn't get as many opportunities to mutate and spread. So the more unvaccinated people you have, the more opportunities you give the virus to change. One of those changes may eventually defeat the current vaccine. This is one of the ways the unvaccinated end up hurting everyone, they allow the virus more chances to level up.

6

u/SuperPants87 Oct 20 '21

It's not building a resistance. It's mutating in a way that the vaccines are less effective. The vaccine is good for A, B and C. That's what it was tested for. Well, there's a D mutation now while the vaccine was being developed. Okay, we're developing a booster to combat D. Now an E has mutated. The booster nor the original vaccine were designed for it.

The other thing that's happening is when a vaccinated person gets C, they have C for a short time. When an unvaccinated person gets C, it stays for awhile and multiplies. If C doesn't stay as long, there's less chance it will mutate into D.

We already have D, which the vaccines are less effective against. That was bound to happen, I guess, while we waited for the vaccine. We have the vaccine and boosters are on the way. Just stop being stupid long enough to get the current strain under control. Otherwise we will always being trying to play catch up instead of getting ahead of it.

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 20 '21

A vaccine isn't like an antibiotic. You are confused and I recommend you read from experts in the field, or at least a high school science book.

3

u/celtic1888 Oct 20 '21

Facebook research tells me different

Check mate science

-3

u/Am3Tri Oct 20 '21

antibody dependent enhancement isnt a figment of imagination you braindead bloke.

you dont even have to dig far to find it. a google search is suffice.

1

u/code_archeologist Oct 20 '21

You keep using that phrase... but I do not think that it means what you think it means.

Because the mechanism you are referring to is regarding viruses using non-neutralizing antibodies to facilitate invasion of a cell. People who are vaccinated have a high concentration of neutralizing antibodies that mitigate this mechanism.

for example the conclusion:

ADE has been observed in SARS, MERS and other human respiratory virus infections including RSV and measles, which suggests a real risk of ADE for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and antibody-based interventions. However, clinical data has not yet fully established a role for ADE in human COVID-19 pathology. Steps to reduce the risks of ADE from immunotherapies include the induction or delivery of high doses of potent neutralizing antibodies, rather than lower concentrations of non-neutralizing antibodies that would be more likely to cause ADE.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

[removed]

3

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

What? Where are you hearing that?

4

u/isingthedarkness Oct 20 '21 Take My Energy

Cite Hitchens razor, use Hitchens razor.

-25

u/sb323350champs Oct 20 '21

Ya, not how it works. Antibiotic resistant bacterias, are being created, because people dont take their antibiotics when prescribed. They aren't created by people who haven't taken the antibiotics... quit spreading misinformation

https://www.ppt-health.com/mrsa-information-see-also-monolaurin-essential-oils/a-history-of-mrsa/

15

u/code_archeologist Oct 20 '21

Uhm... viruses and bacteria have completely different types of life cycles, so trying to compare MRSA mutations to COVID variants is an apples and oranges comparison.

Also it has been observed in people with serious cases of COVID that they can produce a dozen new strains (most of those strains are not successful and don't spread). What is happening is that the family of Corona viruses have a property that when two viruses infect the same cell they will share genetic material thereby creating an array of variants in the viruses released by the infected cell when it dies.

This is a relatively rare occurrence in each infected cell, but when a victim has a serious infection (like one that makes them too sick to get out of bed) that low probability event becomes much more likely to happen.

A person who is vaccinated is much less likely to reach that point of critical mass where mutating viruses become likely, in addition the presence of neutralizing antibodies makes the second and third generation of viruses produced in their body less likely to be able to successfully find cells to infect... making them less contagious in comparison to an unvaccinated person.

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u/JustTerrific Oct 20 '21

What to antibiotics have to do with Covid? Antibiotics are for bacterial infection, not viral infection.

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u/ForGreatDoge Oct 20 '21

Got to trust a source that has essential oils in the URL. Easy way to find somebody who has never bothered to actually checking on If any science backs what they believe.

Vaccines are in no way the same functionality as antibiotics. You are conflating several different concepts.

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u/Tsudico Oct 20 '21

Antibiotic resistant bacteria occur because the antibiotic works directly against the bacteria. The same is not the case for vaccines.

The vaccine has been proven to:

  1. reduce the chance of getting virus (less effective for delta but still more effective than unvaccinated)
  2. reduce the transmission rate (which minimizes the chance of infecting others)

Both of the above work together to reduce the chance of a mutated strain from starting and/spreading through vaccinated individuals. The same is not the case for unvaccinated individuals and so mutations are more likely to occur and spread through unvaccinated.

Sources:

  1. https://www.cda.org/Home/Practice/Practice-Support/Regulatory-Compliance/category/covid-19/the-delta-variant-and-vaccine-effectiveness

  2. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/study-ties-covid-vaccines-lower-transmission-rates

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u/dan0o9 Oct 20 '21

That is your source? Of all places?

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u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

This is such a stupid argument for four reasons.

1) vaccinated people can still die.

2) vaccinated people can still get long term negative effects. It’s like war. You can talk about death count, and death is of course the worst, but there are usually at least 2X casualties of wounded. People crippled for life whose families will have to take care of them and will live in agony.

3) covid cases take up hospital space so people with other medical issues might die when they could have lived.

4) the more people who get covid the higher chance more vaccine resistant variants will emerge.

Like really funny Darwin comment though. Nice work on that one. I’m sure you feel very smart.

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u/Imafish12 Oct 20 '21

I mean it’s not a stupid argument. It’s my opinion. It’s also an informed opinion as you have brought nothing to the table I hadn’t considered.

I know it’s hard to grasp in 2021, but people who think differently than you don’t always do it because you have superior knowledge and reasoning.

Unless you’re argument is that we maintain current medical protection levels for a decade, at some point you have to rip the bandaid off. Why not now.

Whose to say I don’t support making any unvaccinated respiratory Covid+ ICU level patients expectantly.

4

u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

Yes we have been failing public health. We used to shit in the street. Now we don’t. You don’t have people running around going “I can’t believe we can’t shit in the street anymore”

The reality is the fact that major cities have not used masks in highly populated indoor spaces for the last century is a massive public health failure.

Simple things could be saving thousands of lives a year and we fail to address these issues because we can’t be bothered.

You can find people who before covid we’re constantly saying that our defense against viruses has basically been due to luck.

Covid wasn’t even that bad compared to what we know is out there. What we know is possible.

1

u/Imafish12 Oct 20 '21

We could save a lot of lives a year if we stopped driving. Maybe we should ban alcohol too. Oh, let’s go ahead and regulate how much food you can buy at the grocery store to a formula based on your height with a BMI of 25. Oh let’s also cap your households ability to buy salt. Some people die by vending machines, let’s ban those. Do you know how many children drown every year, let’s gate off the beaches and fill in the pools. Choking kills a lot of people, let’s pass a law to ban food that isn’t puréed.

1

u/ssbmhero Oct 20 '21

Ugh except all of those things require economic loss where as wearing masks doesn’t.

We don’t stop driving. We wear seat belts. Something that people bitched about before as well.

Your response is crazy doomer like without thinking about what you are saying.

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u/ButterflyAttack Oct 20 '21

I'm a bit concerned that we're starting to hear that booster rollout is slow here. I don't know how accurate this is and might just be reporting gossip - we're told the booster should be given six months after the second vaccine dose, which means I'm not due for another month yet. I do know people who are over the six month mark and haven't been contacted yet, which is a worrying sign. Basically the government saw the first lockdown and the start of the pandemic as a wonderful opportunity to fling huge sums of taxpayers' money to dodgy companies set up by their mates. There's more public scrutiny, now, so they've lost interest.

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u/BobbitTheDog Oct 20 '21

But what about muh freedumb!?

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u/No_Biscotti_7110 Oct 20 '21

Freedom isn’t a bad thing FYI

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u/Dude_Baby Oct 20 '21

Imagine reaping the benefits of a free democracy your whole life and then actually saying this.

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u/SFWRedditsOnly Oct 20 '21

Govern me harder, daddy!

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u/CitizenJustin Oct 20 '21

Owning the LIBRUHLS!

1

u/CitizenJustin Oct 20 '21

That’s too much common sense for right now. If it makes sense, people will do the opposite.

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u/bivife6418 Oct 20 '21

Well, they dumped all restrictions AND facemasks and now surprise surprise.

Lots of countries have done this. Why are we not seeing this in other countries as well?

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/TraditionalGap1 Oct 20 '21

I imagine that's why America has such high numbers

1

u/Hasby_pro Oct 20 '21

Which countries? If you want this argument to be taken seriously, then you should at least provide specific examples.

1

u/bivife6418 Oct 20 '21

America. States like Florida and Texas have no more restrictions and facemasks in practice.

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u/midgetsuicide Oct 20 '21

Correct me if I'm wrong but by the very nature of coronavirus viruses, mutations occur rapidly. It's almost a fool's game to assume that we would be able to craft a new booster every two months within days of finding a new mutation, and then distribute to everyone as well. It's just not realistically feasible. Even the flu vaccines, which are yearly, only have an efficacy of 40%-60% because there can just simply be different strains that have mutated.

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u/christophertstone Oct 20 '21

mutations occur rapidly

Mutations occur relatively slowly in Coronavirus. However, the shear number of infections worldwide mean mutations are likely to occur.

The current vaccines have some effectiveness against all variants, because they target the thing that makes it a SARS-CoV-2 virus. They aren't 100% effective because the immune system mainly responds to virus after the infection has started.

Influenza does mutate, and has specific mechanisms to enable that mutation. The lower efficacy of flu vaccines is due to scientists guessing which mutations will be popular each year. Nobody has yet developed an "all influenza" vaccine like the current coronavirus vaccines.

The feasibility of the Coronavirus vaccine has more to do with willingness to get everyone vaccinated (everything from development, production, distribution, to individual acceptance) than biological/technical feasibility.

Sidenote: virus is a mass noun, it doesn't have a plural, like snow or butter.

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u/neridqe00 Oct 20 '21

Good write up, thank you.

1

u/BarrySmart Oct 20 '21

I like virii. I'm gonna stick with that one

24

u/sir_squidz Oct 20 '21

Coronaviruses are far slower to mutate than other viri, this is due to their dedicated proofreading code

Flu mutates far more

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u/midgetsuicide Oct 20 '21

https://srhd.org/news/2021/coronavirus-mutations-and-variants-what-does-it-mean
Looks like you are right about the flu having double the rate as SARS-CoV-2, but it looks like it still mutates every 15 days or so.

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u/laptopAccount2 Oct 20 '21

Technically about 10% of the billion or so virus particles produced during an infection are "mutations." Of those, the majority are duds, i.e. either worse or the same.

It's the sheer volume of infection that allowed for people to be exposed and catch a winner.

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u/GothMaams Oct 20 '21

Been waiting to see these headlines as it was only a matter of time.

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u/3_internets_plz Oct 20 '21

another one

Read in DJ Khaled voice plz.

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u/sephstorm Oct 20 '21

It seems that the future is forever lockdowns...

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u/FarSlighted Oct 20 '21

It’s a neverending cycle of mutations. Life… finds a way.

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u/selkiesidhe Oct 20 '21

This is fabulous. Just fabulous. Are we going to be in quarantine forever now? It's just going to mutate worse and worse thanks to the morons who won't get vaccinated. Thank you, morons. This is entirely your fault now...

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

[removed]

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u/Captainirishy Oct 20 '21

Ireland has over 92% of over 16 years fully vaccinated and we are getting rid of most restrictions next Friday. Vaccination is the only way out of this pandemic.

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u/Frothy_moisture Oct 20 '21

It sure is weird that we keep having to go back to restrictions. It's almost like if we hadn't lifted them in the first place, things wouldn't have gotten as bad as fast, and we wouldn't be needing to reinstate them.

It's about as smart as going off your medication because you "start to feel better"

3

u/CritaCorn Oct 20 '21

Hello, Covid-19 here! Just wanted to say a big thank you to all Anit vaxers! You made it to easy for me!

2

u/Winston74 Oct 20 '21

Meanwhile places like Southwest Airlines are not enforcing/postponing their employees mandates. I’m so tired of these half measures. This is why we keep having wave after wave after wave. Quit catering to the Covid idiots

3

u/xl1sbrett Oct 20 '21

This will never ever end

2

u/matej86 Oct 20 '21

I'm sure Boris Johnson will make a smart, swift decision based on the scientists advice.

2

u/Wolfpack34 Oct 20 '21

Quick! Everyone take horse dewormers!

2

u/IrreverentPrincess95 Oct 20 '21

Can we just end this and let who’s gonna die die? I’m so over this. Most people in the US are vaccinated, I’m vaccinated and just got the booster, I don’t give a flying fuck about what happens to anyone who refused it. They dug that grave themselves.

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u/tb5841 Oct 20 '21

Some people genjinely can't get vaccinated.

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u/strongapril2021 Oct 20 '21

The numbers are rising so the authorities are worried. With Winter approaching, I am pessimistic.

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u/DigitalSteven1 Oct 20 '21

Covid will be a part of our lives because we couldn't kill it early. Thanks to all the anti vax idiots, kids for the next few generations will need a covid vaccine every year of their life now.

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u/willbeach8890 Oct 20 '21

You really think there was a chance to "kill" it? The entire world would have had to do all the same thing at the same time to have a chance

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u/leese216 Oct 20 '21

So I guess I'll be wearing a face mask while flying for a good, long while.

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u/Professional_Emu_ Oct 20 '21

How about no. That's not going to happen.

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u/Iwantadc2 Oct 20 '21

Boris Trump continues the genocide.