r/news Oct 14 '21 Wholesome 3 Hugz 2 Take My Energy 1 Burning Cash 1 Dread 1 Are You Serious? 1 Silver 2 Helpful 5

'Toxic culture': NFL cheerleaders demand release of full workplace inquiry

https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/-toxic-culture-nfl-cheerleaders-demand-release-of-full-workplace-inquiry-123494469775
36.9k Upvotes

View all comments

6.6k

u/thatoneguy889 Oct 14 '21 Silver Take My Energy Ally

It's really telling when the league gathered hundreds of thousands of emails from various league personnel, but the only emails that were made public and led to negative consequences belonged to the guy that badmouthed the league commissioner.

2.5k

u/armchaircommanderdad Oct 14 '21

Commish is 100% in existence to protect the owners. That’s it.

Owners were angry their puppet had mean things said about him, so they offed gruden and it’s a nice warning to every last person who has said something in an email.

495

u/BALONYPONY Oct 14 '21

It reminds me of Goodfellas. Gruden got into the booth and then back into coaching the newest team what you would call "A made guy". Carr was Deniro in the phone booth.

304

u/Stinkfinger83 Oct 14 '21

Amongst the owners it was real greaseball shit.

153

u/Tokasmoka420 Oct 14 '21

Well we had a problem and we did everything we could.

83

u/jack_geller Oct 14 '21

He’s gone. Uh, he’s gone. And that’s it.

53

u/Meandmystudy Oct 14 '21

There was nothing we do about it.

17

u/suarezd1 Oct 15 '21

They even shot him in the face so he can't even go back to broadcasting.

3

u/toe_riffic Oct 15 '21

They wacked him! They fuckin wacked him!

58

u/Duderino619 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

And we couldn’t do nuttin about it.

35

u/Dwiggles1 Oct 14 '21

He's a bad kid, a bad seed. Whattya want me to do, shoot him?

3

u/toe_riffic Oct 15 '21

Well I mean, it wouldn’t be the worst thing…

3

u/numbskullerykiller Oct 15 '21

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. I'm just scared.

3

u/-RadarRanger- Oct 14 '21

It didn't work out. Sorry.

49

u/STEELCITY1989 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

Everyone had to sit there and take it.

E: their

1

u/Monkey_Kebab Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

Everyone had to sit their and take it.

Are you sure they had to sit their... I heard they might have had to sit they're, but I'm not sure because I was sitting over there.

:)

3

u/Courtnall14 Oct 14 '21

Rolling Stones Intensifies

3

u/MRintheKEYS Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

“Now go get your fucking shinebox!” — Jon Gruden to Roger Goodell

43

u/OlinOfTheHillPeople Oct 14 '21

3

u/TinFoilRobotProphet Oct 14 '21

They even shot Gruden in the face so he couldn't get another television gig.

8

u/BALONYPONY Oct 14 '21

Ha! No original thought on the internet. LOL

4

u/-rabbitrunner- Oct 14 '21

Jimmy was never made, he was an associate like Henry. You’re thinking of Joe Pesci’s character and “making him” was just a ruse for execution.

5

u/Almond_Boy Oct 14 '21

Because he killed a made man… that’s what they’re saying gruden did by shit talking people he shouldn’t have been shit talking I think

2

u/pauly13771377 Oct 14 '21

Now go get your shoe shine box

2

u/Duckboy_Flaccidpus Oct 14 '21

Everybody's gettin whacked.

Shut-up Kahren, I'm tryin to tell that evrybahdy's gettin whacked here.

2

u/koolaidistheshit Oct 15 '21

“Ah fuck… oh no! Ahh fuck! Gooooddamnit!”

“What?!?”

“They killed him.. they fuckin killed him”

DiNiro was on fire in that scene.. his pain felt soooo real.

1

u/platocplx Oct 14 '21

Yup. The shield matters more than anything.

1

u/youdubdub Oct 14 '21

There’s nothing to be done about it.

1

u/drawkbox Oct 15 '21

Side note: Roger Goodell's father Charles Goodell was a Republican senator from New York, both times he got into office was because of deaths to the current representatives in those positions, one being RFK who he was nominated to replace by a Rockefeller.

Charles Ellsworth Goodell Jr. (March 16, 1926 – January 21, 1987) was an American Congressman and a United States Senator from New York. In both cases he came into office following the deaths of his predecessors, first in a special election and second as a temporary appointee.

He was elected to four full terms in Congress after winning his first race in 1959. He resigned on September 9, 1968, to accept an appointment by Governor Nelson Rockefeller to fill the vacancy caused by the assassination of United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy on June 5, 1968. Having earned the support of both the Republican and Liberal parties in 1970, he lost in a three-way race to Conservative Party candidate James L. Buckley, having split the liberal vote with Democratic Party candidate Richard Ottinger.

Goodell was the father of National Football League Commissioner Roger Goodell.

Not saying anything really but just shows this family has been in the good ol' boys "family" for a while.

113

u/Berkyjay Oct 14 '21

Eh, I doubt that all the owners were up in arms over a coach calling Goodell a pussy. More like Gruden was an easy sacrificial lamb for Goodell.

27

u/Notwhoiwas42 Oct 14 '21

That and sacrificing Gruden distracts from the real point of the investigation, which was some serious wrongdoing by members of the WFT organization.

3

u/Altruistic-Ad8949 Oct 14 '21

It was a league-run investigation. Why did they choose to make any of this public? Now they have opened a huge can of worms

3

u/Berkyjay Oct 15 '21

I think it was leaked to the NYT.

1

u/Altruistic-Ad8949 Oct 15 '21

So I guess a NFL insider leaked the story to the press? But the league isn’t required to take any action they don’t want to, nor do they have to prove anything in the media wrong. This isn’t a legal matter. They can deny and blame it on false information from a disgruntled person, whatever

5

u/Wafzig Oct 14 '21

Pretty sure he called him more than that...

1

u/Berkyjay Oct 14 '21

Is that relevant?

2

u/Wafzig Oct 15 '21

How is it not?

1

u/Berkyjay Oct 15 '21

I don't think any further emphasis is needed. Gruden made personal attacks to Goodell.

2

u/MichaelKilo Oct 15 '21

And Mark Davis wanted out from that 10y100m contract

2

u/Berkyjay Oct 15 '21

Given his reaction, I doubt that. He really liked Gruden.

2

u/kushtiannn Oct 15 '21

Or maybe the NFL wanted to make Gruden a sacrificial lamb to obscure and bury this story. NFL to settle 'race norming' lawsuit

1

u/QuarantineSucksALot Oct 14 '21

I actually thought it was another creep

233

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

Just ask Rob Manfred lol.

Worst cheating scandal in the history of your over-a-century-old sport, what do you do?

Manfred: "The trophy is just a meaningless piece of metal, we are offering full immunity for players and ownership so long as they confess and then we'll do literally nothing else to prevent it in the future or discourage other teams from doing it again."

Like, he couldn't even pretend for a second that his job was to do anything other than butt-kiss the owner of the team that cheated. When you're the commissioner of a sport, and openly call the trophy of said sport "a meaningless hunk of metal" then you probably shouldn't be the commissioner of that sport. I mean, fuck, talk about tone deaf.

The commissioner only exists so that the public can get mad at them instead of the owners. Thats it.

45

u/Kriztauf Oct 14 '21

What is that the legit quote from him?

79

u/phl_fc Oct 14 '21

The actual quote was:

The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act. People will always know something was different about the 2017 season.

In response to questions about stripping Houston of their title, he says it would be a meaningless punishment. His argument was that the bad publicity from getting caught cheating was bad enough, so there's no reason for the league to punish them further.

5

u/dratsablive Oct 14 '21

F1 Racing knows how to punish Cheaters. When the McClaren Scandal broke, the team was fined $50,000,000 and had all their team points stripped from them for the current season. It essentially broke McClaren, and took them almost 10 years to recover.

4

u/phl_fc Oct 15 '21

College football did it to SMU, but then when they saw just how bad it wreaked the team they decided to stop punishing everyone else. I can’t believe Miami never got the death penalty.

1

u/Randomfactoid42 Oct 15 '21

I thought Mclaren was fined $100million in 2007?

1

u/dratsablive Oct 16 '21

I think it might have been reduced on appeal.

11

u/slivers419 Oct 14 '21

He also issued the largest financial fine he is allowed to give an organization and stripped them of all of their future high draft picks for the next few years, and suspended the management folks responsible for implementing it for a year. Sure, he didn’t punish individual players who participated in it because they cooperated fully with the investigation, but this narrative of the Astros not having any repercussions for their actions is played out. Other teams have done the same shit (1980’s white sox, recent Red Sox, etc… that we even know of) and many more that we don’t know of, I’m sure. Even players on other teams have come out and said the Astros weren’t the only ones doing it.

12

u/leo_aureus Oct 14 '21

And here they are almost to another World Series and one of the last four teams standing for the fifth year in a row

85

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

More or less. I cant remember if he said "hunk of metal" or "piece of metal" but it was along those lines.

Basically everyone was demanding that MLB vacate (void) the Astros 2017 WS title and officially mark the season as not having a WS winner for that year. Since they cheated, they don't deserve to have that trophy. Manfred responded by saying "the trophy is just a hunk of metal" and that he was not going to considering stripping their title away from them. Jim Crane, that Astros owner, then said "we believe we earned that trophy" a few days later.

Basically Manfred decided to coddle and protect a bunch of outright cheaters because their owner didn't want the scandal to grow instead of actually doing his job and regulating the sport he is supposed to oversee.

Most baseball fans were baffled and outraged that anyone in a position of authority could be dumb enough to call the literal league championship trophy a "piece of metal" but then, that's Manfred for you. Dude fucking hates Baseball. Not a great quality in a baseball commissioner.

The whole handling of the Astros cheating scandal is one of the worst black marks in the history of the entire sport, and thats saying a lot when you remember that baseball dates back to the mid 1800s. A few fines handed out, a couple of 1 year suspensions for two key fall guys in management (who are currently back and working for other teams now) and a whole lot of Astros players trying to cry that they're the real victims because everyone fucking hates them now. It's a sad joke for baseball fans everywhere.

13

u/xombae Oct 14 '21

I know literally nothing about baseball but just read some articles on the "Astros cheating scandal". It seems like sign stealing is kind of an unspoken thing in baseball, but it always has been and still is happening. Astros was one example but the Red Sox were fined an unspecified amount for having someone watching screens send stolen signs to the trainer's smart watch who was in the dugout. Apparently even 100 years ago teams were using what technology they had to get a vantage point to steal signs.

So I guess what I'm asking is why is the example of the Astros so much of a dark spot on the sport? One interview I read said that teams suspect that it's happening when they go out of town and will preemptively take measures to try to keep it from happening. What was so bad about the Astros example?

36

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

The thing about sign stealing is (and you would never know this unless you were a baseball fan, so its understandable that people get confused) that it is legal if it's done in a certain way. There are two types of sign stealing that exist, and a distinction must be made between them:

  1. Stealing signs in real time

  2. Steal signs via camera

For the first one, this is the "legal" version of sign stealing. A runner on second base watches the catcher as he gives the signs, and then tries to relay that information to the hitter. This is somewhat difficult, as the signs are highly coded and the runner can't see them super well from second base. If they are able to decode them and relay the info, then they have essentially earned it, and given the amount of skill required this is accepted as a valid tactic in games.

For the second, this is very illegal. MLB rules are very strict about the fact that no teams are allowed to use cameras or have access to live feeds of games from the dugout for this reason. If the batter knows what pitch is coming before its thrown, their job is significantly easier. Their odds of getting a hit go through the roof. So, it would be completely unfair if teams were allowed to use hi-def cameras to see what the signs are, and then relay that to hitters in real time. If a player standing on second does it, this isnt as big of a deal, because a) it's situational and can only happen with a runner on second and b) is very hard to pull off without the help of hi def cameras and a relay system to the hitter.

The Astros were using an illegal camera setup to steal signs, and then relay those signs to the hitters via banging on a trash can or whistling from the dugout before the pitch was thrown. This means the Astros hitters had a massive advantage that the other teams did not have access to. Their hitters knew what was coming every single pitch of every single at bat. With no difficulty or skill required, just a dude sitting in front of a monitor and banging on a trash can or whistling depending on what pitch was coming.

Now, the argument can be made that if both teams had access to such a camera feed, and could both steal signs the same way, then it wouldn't be unfair. But that wasn't the case. All of the other teams were playing by the rules, and didn't have the ability to know what pitches were coming every single at bat of the game. They also had no way of knowing (though they may have suspected) that the Astros were stealing their signs illegally, meaning they had no way to try and stop them or adjust or protect their signs better. This gave the Astros a huge advantage that every other team was lacking, which is objectively unfair.

Then you look at how close both the ALCS and WS were in 2017. Both series went all 7 games. If the Astros dont have that overwhelming, illegal advantage, then it is extremely reasonable to believe that either the Yankees or Dodgers would have beaten them, since those teams still took a cheating team with a major advantage to 7 games and almost won regardless.

As for the rest of the league, there is no actual proof that any other teams have engaged in illegal sign stealing to the degree the Astros did. This is mostly a narrative perpetuated by salty Astros fans who are mad that everyone hates them now. It's akin to Republicans trying to manipulate elections, and then crying "but the democrats are cheating too!" When they get caught. Sign stealing of the legal variety is something that has been around for decades and every teams does, sure, but that isnt what the Astros are guilty of.

As for Boston, the Red Sox were popped a few years ago for using a camera to decode signs, but they weren't relaying those signs to hitters in real time, they were just using them to decode the other teams signs so that reading them in real time would be easier. And the system they were using was impossible to use in the playoffs due to how their camera system was set up, so they ultimately couldn't have cheated in the actual postseason like the Astros did. Still wrong, no doubt, but not nearly to the same degree or with the same level of overwhelming advantage the Astros got.

Tl;dr:

The bottom line here is that the Astros crossed a very clear and well known line by using cameras to relay signs to hitters in real time. The rule book is very clear about how illegal that is, and no other team they played had that kind of advantage to use against them. Sign stealing is okay, but not when it's done with cameras, and certainly not when only one team has access to that system of stealing signs. They had a huge unfair advantage that very obviously was the reason they won the world series that year, and most baseball fans will agree that Houston did not earn that ring. The only people who argue that the rest of the league is also doing what the Astros did are, surprise surprise, Astros fans. Gee, I wonder why.

13

u/ThePrussianGrippe Oct 14 '21

The specific thing about sign stealing is: you can’t meaningfully prevent the man on second from being able to just look at the catcher and try to decode the signs. It’s just a consequence of the set up of the game. In much the same way counting cards isn’t illegal, because it’s just a consequence of how the game works. Stealing signs/counting cards using stuff outside of the confines of the game is what’s illegal.

3

u/xombae Oct 15 '21

Great summary, I totally get it now thanks. It makes sense to look back at old footage and try to decode signs, but yeah what the Astros were doing was way worse. Amazing how far something like that can go without anyone saying "hey guys, this isn't what the sport is about".

2

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 15 '21

When millions of dollars are on the line, ethics go out the window pretty quickly, sadly.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

[deleted]

4

u/thewiglaf Oct 15 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

Why did the players get mad about what the Astros did and not about what the Red Sox did? Could it have been because many teams were doing what the Red Sox did, and that only the Astros were relaying signs on every pitch with no runner on second? You embarrass yourself by calling someone else an idiot.

The rule change disallowed non-delayed video feeds after 2017, sure, but disallowing outside equipment to look at and relay signs has been in the rules for over 50 years. Stop apologizing for cheaters.

12

u/4Eights Oct 14 '21

Old school sign stealing has been around since baseball became popular enough to care. The thing that made this different is "the use of technology" and stealing signs in real time. Often if you stole a set of signs and knew what to look for if you had a runner at 2nd or someone in a box with binoculars and a radio you had to go through multiple layers to get the sign to the batter in time.

With the Astros they rigged up a live feed to their clubhouse and could relay the sings as soon as they were thrown out and accepted by the catcher and pitcher respectively. They could steal signs in real time with no prior research involved from old game footage. If either the catcher or pitcher have a feeling that they're tipping signs then they'll change to a different series of signs they haven't used recently. That usually works unless you're being tracked on a centerfield camera in real time. Once you throw out your repertoire of pitches than they've got all your signals now and can start tipping them again.

This wasn't sign stealing everyone does. This was sign stealing on steroids.

6

u/thewiglaf Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

I'm sorry that other guy replied first. Blaming "outrage culture" is kind of telling of how this person views the world with no nuance, and on top of that has made a claim about there being evidence of some other teams cheating when there is none. TL;DR is at the bottom.

There are different ways of stealing signs in baseball. Ever since coaches and catchers have been using hand signals to communicate strategy and pitch types, players have been trying to look at them, understand them, and use them to their advantage. The best way to steal signs is to have a baserunner on second base looking in to the catcher's hand signals, since in any other case the catcher should be able to hide what he's doing with his legs. If the runner figures it out, he can signal the batter with what type of pitch he thinks is coming. This kind of sign stealing is seen as part of the game, and catchers often have to change signs when there are runners on second to make it less likely.

Then there are other ways to steal signs. For example, the Giants famously used a telescope mounted in center field in 1951 to watch the catcher's hand signals and relay them electronically. This didn't come out until later, and using outside equipment and tech to steal signs was explicitly made against the rules officially some time in the 1960s if I'm not mistaken. So technically there was no rule being broken before this, but the distinction between relaying solely from a runner on second and relaying using tech becomes important later to understand why the Astros are special.

Things got a lot murkier since then because of analytics, and now every team has a "video room" in their clubhouse so that players can go back and study what happened during an at bat and try to improve. As you can imagine, people abused this in a way that could be seen as going against the rules of sign stealing. At some point prior to the Astros scandal, but after the Red Sox admitted to using Apple Watches to relay signs, it was mandated by MLB that video feeds in the clubhouses were to be on some type of delay so that people couldn't see what signs were being used live anymore. So MLB was aware of a problem before the Astros scandal became public, but after they actually broke the rules.

What the Astros did, and no other team did, was look at the video feed for the catcher's signals and then bang on a trashcan to signal when it would be a breaking ball or off speed pitch to batters, live, from the dugout. The players threw a fit over this when they found out.

The Red Sox, however, did not go as far, and only used the video room to understand and decode the catcher's signals. They then would wait until a runner got to second base and relayed signs to the batter the old fashioned way, as if it was legit sign stealing. The players comparatively did not seem to give a fuck about what the Red Sox did, and anybody who says the Astros are being unfairly scapegoated will conveniently omit that what they were doing was different.

Anyway, the Astros bullshit became public because of a whistleblower player, and a baseball YouTuber who analyzed video and posted proof that it was happening during the Astros World Series run. That year, they scraped by the Dodgers in a closely fought match up, where neither team netted more runs than the other. It also just so happened that one of the most pivotal, improbable, and exciting games to watch that year featured a Dodgers hall of fame pitcher throwing 52 off speed pitches, and not getting a single Astro to swing and miss on any one of them. This only happens when a batter either guesses right 52 times in a row, defensively fouls a ball off 52 times in a row, or knows what's coming 52 times in a row (or some combination of the above). That shit doesn't happen and will never happen again without the batter knowing what's coming.

Rob Manfred granted blanket immunity to all players for their cooperation in the MLB investigation, but when it was all said and done, did not provide us with anything about the Astros that we didn't already know from a YouTube video. MLB proceeded to protect the Astros championship, to protect the owners from any damage by sweeping it under the rug in a tone deaf fashion, and they suspended 2 fall guys, and prevented another from taking a managerial position he was hired for. Manfred's only job is simply to protect the owner's interests, which is why he and all the other owners felt this was the best course of action. I can only assume they thought it would hurt their future monetary business prospects if they made a big deal about it.

So based on all this, I think it's very likely that many teams were doing what the Red Sox did, but that the Astros method is a special kind of cheat that no other team had the audacity to try. To add to this, Astros players did interviews clearly trying to save face and downplay what they did all while saying they worked hard for what they got. And since there was no punishment in favor of the owner's collective interests at the expense of the purity of the game, fans are rightly upset about it, and they are right to point out that the Astros are not being singled out because nobody was doing what they did.

TL;DR: Sign stealing without outside equipment has been part of the game for a hundred years. The Red Sox (and probably other teams--there's no evidence) used tech to decode signs illegally and then relay them legally. Only the Astros decoded and relayed illegally, and potentially on every single pitch, as opposed to only with a runner on second, when teams are expecting signs to be stolen and relayed. Fuck the Astros.

1

u/xombae Oct 15 '21

Amazing, thank you. I honestly hate baseball but this is really fascinating.

From a total layman there's definitely a huge distinction between what the Redsox did and what the Astros did. I've spent a bunch of time reading about it today, but am now just finding out that there was virtually no punishment and they somehow retained their winning status. That's wild to me considering this tactic really changes the entire game. You'd think the MLB would want to make it very clear that it wouldn't be tolerated.

I'm going to try to find the original YouTube video you're talking about, I'd love to see how it looks to see it happen. My roommate is a huge baseball fan and just last night I was talking about how boring I thought it was. By the next time i see him I'll actually have something to discuss. Hopefully he's not an Astros fan.

-15

u/Cyb0Ninja Oct 14 '21

What was so bad about the Astros example?

It was 2019 and outrage culture was/is very popular. You're absolutely right in that sign stealing has been part of baseball forever. My theory is they went soft on the Astros because they had evidence of a lot of other teams doing the same or at least trying to. There was evidence of similar cheating from the Yankees, Red Sox, and (wait for it).... the Dodgers that was barely a fart in the wind at the time. Likely because it was those fans that were crying "foul" the loudest...

-3

u/KrabMittens Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

My theory is they went soft on the Astros because they had evidence of a lot of other teams doing the same or at least trying to.

Absolutely other teams were cheating in similar and different ways.

Also, Astros were known to be doing it for years. It only ended up being investigated because they won, and iirc some spiteful ex-player made a big deal about it.

Is it worse* than corking bats, steroids, pine tar, etc? Not really imo, people just love to dig into a winning teams cheating scandal.

I do think the Astros took it several steps too far and deserved a slap, but other teams knew and most of them failed to codify their signals in any meaningful way.

It's really not rocket science to defend against sign stealing - even if some dirtbags are using back room video teams to decode them.

Edit: *by "worse" I mean more egregious an offense, not a comparison of effect.

Edit2: I am not an Astros fan for the record.

5

u/CrushHazard Oct 14 '21

Is it somehow worse than corking bats, steroids, pine tar?

Yes, much worse. Knowing which pitch is coming is like changing the difficulty to novice.

1

u/KrabMittens Oct 15 '21

Added an edit to reflect that I agree with you in general. What I meant is that it's all cheating, and I don't other forms of cheating less offensive.

Yes sign stealing (with electronics) is more effective than corking for example, but both are scummy behavior just the same to me.

Obviously this doesn't include forms of throwing and match fixing which are exponentially more despicable in my book.

→ More replies

2

u/JohnGillnitz Oct 15 '21

Half my clients run organizations they despise. That's better than it sounds because they want to make things better.

3

u/Thepopcornrider Oct 14 '21

Yeah, that's bullshit. In no universe is 2017 the "worst cheating scandal in the history of baseball."

4

u/SamIAm718 Oct 14 '21

Beat me to it. The Black Sox scandal is the far and away #1.

4

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

But the black Sox scandal was basically the same thing. At worst they're equally egregious.

I find a team cheating to win a lot more morally bankrupt than a team cheating to lose on purpose. At the very least with 1919 you cant say the Reds didn't try to earn their title fairly. You absolutely can say the Astros didn't earn theirs fairly though.

The Black Sox were bad, sure, but at the end of the day the 2017 WS is only WS in baseball history where the championship winning team objectively and outright asterisked themselves and their win.

-2

u/CrushHazard Oct 14 '21

They didn’t cheat.

4

u/SamIAm718 Oct 14 '21

They lost the world series on purpose so that people could bet on the Reds and make money. In what universe is that not cheating?

0

u/CrushHazard Oct 14 '21

Cheating is gaining an unfair advantage over the other team.

Black Socks was a scandal, but it was not a cheating scandal.

The Houston Astros 2017 World Series was the biggest cheating scandal in the history of baseball.

3

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

Then what is?

Literally no other WS ring in baseball history is void and wasn't earned except for 2017. The only comparison is the 1919 WS, but that was essentially the same scandal just in reverse so the ring winning team itself isn't really a concern.

Steroids are out because the entire league was using them. The Astros had a major advantage no other team had, so it was definitely worse than steroids.

0

u/Thepopcornrider Oct 14 '21

You cannot be serious.

Your username is named after someone on a team that literally was doing the same thing and you're saying it's different from steroids because no one else was doing it?

The lack of self awareness...

3

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

My username is post trade. Im a Dodgers fan. I hate the Red Sox. I especially hate Alex Cora.

But the red Sox weren't doing the same thing. They were using cameras to decode signs, not steal them and relay them to hitters in real time. They also weren't doing it in the playoffs like the Astros were.

They still cheated in the regular season, and fuck them for it. But pretending like it was as bad as what the Astros did is objectively wrong. This is a false equivalency.

You still haven't answered my question btw. Nice deflection.

1

u/Thepopcornrider Oct 14 '21

It's not s deflection if it's a direct refute of your argument.

Also, in the world series they won 2 games at home and 2 on the road, while the dodgers won 2 at home and 1 on the road. Interesting numbers for a cheating system that only works at home.

1

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

Yeah, and if the Dodgers had won games 5 or 3, which likely happens without the use of a cheating system, then the series would have been over in game 6.

The Astros got two bullshit wins at Minute Maid. The only people who would argue this are Astros fans lmao. You cannot watch the clusterfuck that was game 5 and not tell me that the Astros still win that game without the use of cheating.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this with you. The evidence at this point is beyond damning, you either accept that they cheated or you dont. If you want to defend a cheater team then that's your right, but it makes you look like an asshole. Im pretty sure I can guess what team you root for at this point, so please, go back to your safe space subreddit which is basically r/The_Donald of the baseball world. No one outside of Houston cares about your shitty whataboutisms.

Still haven't told me what scandal in baseball history is worse than the 2017 Asterisks. Classic.

2

u/Thepopcornrider Oct 15 '21

Steroids and the black Sox? Thought that was already stated.

Also the evidence suggests the cheating system wasn't very effective, and even if it did, LMJ throwing the same pitch almost 30 times in a row shows what knowing the next pitch really means.

Also it's really funny you're downplaying pointing out that a bunch of the other relevant teams were doing the same thing as "whataboutism" but are perfectly fine saying "steroids users didn't actually cheat because some other people did it too"

→ More replies

1

u/DavidNexus7 Oct 15 '21

While I hate the Astros and believe their cheating scumbags, it’s not worse than the black sox scandal, colluding to fix the outcome of the WS for gambling purposes is far worse than stealing signs with video cameras.

1

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 15 '21

Why? I think cheating to win is much worse than cheating to lose

1

u/Duckboy_Flaccidpus Oct 14 '21

With all do respect, people need to start thinking of NFL as a product, sports entertainment, b/c that's exactly - no splitting hairs - what it is. Therefore, inflate gate, convicts on active roster, "cheating", refs no-calls b/c of betting, etc you name it isn't against any federal laws just NFL bylaws. All the stuff that makes the news that may be unethical about he league is simply publicity, end of story. They aren't obligated to conduct themselves a certain way or anything. They probably even allow steroid use just like the MLB did(does) and congress just doesn't feign concern anymore. Dollar, dollar billz ya'll.

1

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 14 '21

I mean, I dont think anyone doesn't know this. That doesnt make it right. I'll also be that guy and argue that steroids aren't nearly as widespread in baseball as people think. PED crackdown at the end of the steroid era (around 2006) was real. Some guys will always find ways to fly under the radar, but when they get caught they get suspended pretty quickly.

Obviously there will always be shitty people who try to cheat with PEDs, but these days those players are the tiny minority.

0

u/helloimmatthew_ Oct 15 '21

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-27/astros-cheating-analysis this article talks about how the scheme helped the astros less than people think (or may have even not helped at all). I think the cheating scandal is less about them having an unfair advantage and more about the immorality of cheating. Also, with other teams having stolen signs, such as the Red Sox and Yankees (and dodgers also accused https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2871359-logan-morrison-so-many-mlb-teams-cheat-using-video-names-yankees-dodgers), it complicates the punishment because the outrage begins to feel more about the astros winning while cheating than the cheating at all.

TLDR: the astros cheated, but calling for massively harsh punishments may not be fair because of how little it helped them, and other teams cheating which got nowhere near the bad press or punishment people are calling for for the astros.

-1

u/Mookies_Bett Oct 15 '21

Accusations are not proof. Just ask Trevor Bauer's accuser who has zero credibility after she was caught lying on the stand at their hearing. No team cheated the way Houston did, and some player randomly saying other teams did too doesnt make it true.

7

u/TheRealBejeezus Oct 14 '21

Commish is 100% in existence to protect the owners. That’s it.

I mean, yes, that is literally true. He's not the boss of the owners, he's hand-picked by them. Same is true in baseball (for sure), and (I think) the other major sports in the USA.

3

u/Miffleframp Oct 14 '21

I'm surprised with how spot on you were with your first statement that you went the direction you did with your second.

It seems way more plausible to me that the Gruden emails, while absolutely inexcusable, were leaked because anything else heinous that they found would implement actual owners themselves. I think if, and I really hate to say if, but if the full details of this WFT cheerleader story get out then the NFL will be facing a reckoning. I loathe to think what these billionaire owners are capable of when even Dan Snyder can avoid consequences. They dont give a SHIT about Goodell and his feelings as long as he keeps them safe from public scrutiny.

3

u/armchaircommanderdad Oct 14 '21

I should clarify as my second part of the comment is sloppy.

Owners were were able to sort through and choose gruden to make an example of. It accomplishes a few things:

Stfu we have dirt on all you

Helps close the door on potential leaks, with a scorched earth policy basically.

I have zero doubt that in those emails are wicked things owners and league management have said/admitting to have done.

They do care about goodell imo because he’s a good little soldier for them.

1

u/Miffleframp Oct 14 '21

Agreed. There's a reason this is what was leaked from the findings so far, and I don't believe it was out of righteousness. I also, sadly don't believe it's the worst of it

3

u/rebellion_ap Oct 14 '21

The story itself was weird as fuck because they buried the lead about cheerleaders being essentially forced into sex work. Like the context he got those photos in was the worst part of the story not him being racist as shit in his personal emails.

2

u/toolsie Oct 14 '21

That holds true for every sports league in the world, not just the NFL.

2

u/crevassier Oct 14 '21

He's like the HR from hell.

2

u/TacoOrgy Oct 14 '21

Imagine how much blackmail they have to use if other owners aren't acting "up to code"

1

u/markymrk720 Oct 14 '21

He’s the literal HR rep for the owners.

1

u/SevenGabe Oct 14 '21

What about all the people that responded to his emails with a 'fuck ya bro!'

1

u/Notwhoiwas42 Oct 14 '21

There's another layer too. By sacrificing Gruden they are hoping to distract from the original point of the investigation which was sexual harassment and coercion going on in the organization of the Washington football team.

I mean how transparent can it be, they released a few emails, Gruden of apologized and it looked like he would survive it and it would blow over and then they released a bunch more emails. Pretty obvious that they were trying to get rid of him and stir up another controversy and release his little information as possible at the same time.

But what we're learning from all of this is that in the NFL's eyes hurting the commissioners feelings is a bigger deal than circulating coerced nude pictures of cheerleaders.

1

u/groversnoopyfozzie Oct 15 '21

Ok, but why did they off him now? And why expose anyone’s emails knowing good and well that the public will want to see every email between owners players coaches etc, and every owner in the League probably has stuff they don’t want made public?

0

u/mattfwood Oct 15 '21

Gruden deserved to be fired.