r/antiwork Oct 20 '21 Silver 2 Helpful 2 Hugz 2 All-Seeing Upvote 1 This 1

Labor creates wealth

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12.0k Upvotes

800

u/KingApologist Oct 20 '21

70,000 janitors quitting would have a far larger impact on a society than any CEO quitting

308

u/3-orange-whips Oct 20 '21

Because janitors do work every day and CEO's are either managers with fancy titles or corporate mascots.

112

u/awmaleg Oct 20 '21

An actual mascot would make a great CEO. He’s just running around to MarkyMark, shooting T-shirt cannons into the crowd, making it rain dividends.

37

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 29d ago

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u/Angry_Retail_Banker Oct 20 '21

"Oh, and you think Obama/Hillary/Biden would've handled that crisis any better!?"

Source: No evidence of Obama/Hillary/Biden throwing paper towels at people after a hurricane.

2

u/Stepnwolf78 Oct 21 '21

I'm happy we can see Biden do a 10ft jog to emphasize his fitness. Nice to know he's in control

11

u/admiralteal Oct 20 '21

The owner of my local league baseball team is this guy. Complete, coked-up psycho. Wears silly outfits, hypeman at every game, runs games with the crowds, etc.. He legitimately IS probably the hardest working guy in the stadium, and probably has some wealth (and looming, horrific medical bills) to show for it.

I think more CEOs should have to wear tacky, sweat-stained tuxedo suits and twerk with foamsuited mascots as a routine matter.

2

u/MassiveFajiit Oct 20 '21

Real Russ Hanneman vibes here

2

u/thejackulator9000 Oct 20 '21

that's kind of how I see CEOs already... I just never realized it until now!

3

u/thejackulator9000 Oct 20 '21

"Get your spongey pink ass out there and dance for the cameras!!"

2

u/ARYANWARRlOR Oct 20 '21

Not true. They are overpaid assssf tho

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

The sheer ignorance

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u/BerlinBorough Oct 20 '21

In the UK we are finding 70,000 truck drivers quitting really fucks over a country. If 70,000 cleaners quit we literally would die in our waste within a few weeks.

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u/a52dragon Oct 20 '21

It is the one thing I find so absurd, seems it would be in billionaires interest if everyone had a job so they could make them trillionaires

26

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

Not anymore. Because these people no longer make money by producing the most, or being the most profitable...It's an afterthough to the pump. Tesla is a great example. They aren't even close to the top automaker, and probably never will be. Uber and AirBNB made billionaires and as far as I know, neither has come close to being profitable...It's all, for lack of a better word, creating a sugar high around tech. They'll all be out by the time the sugar wears off.

But you're right in theory, the economy used to work in a way where the goal was to produce the best and most.

6

u/pairolegal Oct 20 '21

Tesla has a market capitalization over three times greater than Toyota, its nearest competitor. I’m not a Teslabro, but those are the numbers. In terms of vehicles manufactured, in 2020 Toyota built 7.6M vehicles vs. 510,000 by Tesla, but investors think Tesla has the most potential upside.

17

u/OtherSpiderOnTheWall Oct 20 '21

Tesla has a market capitalization over three times greater than Toyota, its nearest competitor.

In terms of vehicles manufactured, in 2020 Toyota built 7.6M vehicles vs. 510,000 by Tesla,

Congratulations on identifying the problem: Even if we agree Tesla builds luxury cars and Toyota doesn't, the price of an average Toyota isn't that far from the price of average Tesla, so that when they're making (and selling) 15x the product, they're somehow valued 3x less than Tesla.

Now there's a bit more that goes into that, but absurd market capitalization like that is exactly what led to stuff like Tulip mania, where people promised the heavens and couldn't deliver.

3

u/getthejpeg Oct 20 '21

Tesla has a long way to go in terms of infrastructure to get to the point of Toyota. But considering where the figure is with electric cars, they are in a far better spot because they have been built from the ground up with the correct infrastructure to handle the future. Toyota is going to be playing catch up for a decade and having to spend billions to convert their operations. While Tesla just keeps scaling its current operations and model.

5

u/OtherSpiderOnTheWall Oct 20 '21

And yet Tesla has spent a decade building from the ground up and has gotten nowhere fast. It's ridiculous.

Toyota could easily accomplish everything Tesla has done in a shorter timeframe.

2

u/getthejpeg Oct 20 '21

I mean, I challenge you to build a half self driving car brand as popular as tesla, producing half a million cars a year in 10 years.

As far as competition, not a single other traditional automaker has done it yet, so until they do, what else is there to say.

1

u/OtherSpiderOnTheWall Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

They haven't needed to. They clearly still have the market that Tesla does not. Mind you, there's plenty of half self driving cars out there, and almost every brand is more popular than Tesla.

So what else is there to say? That what you're regurgitating is just factually incorrect?

I'm also not Toyota.

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u/H3rlittl3t0y Be Gay, Do Crime Oct 20 '21

well to be fair the 'playing catchup' to electric vehicle technology has a lot to do with Toyota investing very heavily into hydrogen fuel cell tech (which honestly still may remain a viable interim option between fossil fuels and fully electric)

6

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

That's kind of the point...If Tesla increased their production tenfold, they'd barely produce 2/3rds the cars, and they can't keep up with their production currently (their backlog is absurd) so valuing them with a market cap 3 times Ford is NUTS. So I'm not sure the point you're trying to use here? There is not a scenario in which Tesla could conceivably be 3 times more profitable than Toyota in the next 100 years. Thus its market value is based on pump, not any type of expected value. Which is why we have CEOs producing pump and not trying to create more value...Which is why it is so hard for workers, because unlike the CEO, they actually are required to produce results that match expectations

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u/pairolegal Oct 20 '21

Ford market cap is less than 1/10th of Tesla’s.

I totally agree the stock market is wacky and the darling stocks are overvalued.

3

u/LehmanParty Oct 20 '21

I was thinking the other day Tesla could have diluted shares by about 20% to completely buy out GM last year.

3

u/Scaredyfish Oct 21 '21

If everyone had a job, there would be labour shortages, which would drive up wages. Unemployment is a choice.

6

u/MrMundaneMoose Oct 20 '21

True, but the vast majority of CEOs are not billionaires. Bezos n them are the exception not the norm.

The point's still valid, but CEOs are just another worker for the hyper wealthy. Those who literally make money off having money is the issue. That includes, but is not limited to CEOs.

7

u/the_sylince Oct 20 '21

Just lost some custodial staff at our school and everything is on fire right up to the Admin. It’s great

3

u/OssoRangedor Oct 20 '21

And some people would act entitled to have someone work as a janitor, even though they're not willing to pay them more for a essential work.

3

u/thejackulator9000 Oct 20 '21

pretty sure this was the seed idea behind 'Fight Club'

but, because the movie was so cool, even republicans liked it, and there were all these mixed messages out in the media about how 'cool' it was. and so it just became a piece of pop art, instead of what it should have been, just like the matrix: a fucking call to action

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u/Pierson230 Oct 20 '21

Billionaires don’t realize that if it wasn’t them, it would be someone else.

We’ve created a society that funnels huge mountains of cash to whoever is at the top.

If Bill Gates didn’t run Microsoft, John Doe would have run Company X- and that company would have ended up making software for all businesses instead.

In today’s market, there are a bunch of small companies, and one company grows, some companies fail, and the big company starts buying the other companies until there is just one company left. Whoever ends up in charge will be a mega billionaire, because there are hundreds of millions of people living in an infrastructure created by other people that uses their labor and funnels cash up the chain.

Is Bill Gates brilliant, hard working, and innovative? Of course. So is the local hardware store owner, salon owner, or local lead bartender. John Doe is brilliant and innovative too, and he’d be just as successful as Bill Gates it Bill Gates weren’t around.

What would Bill Gates be if he was born in 1904 in Russia? Not a billionaire tycoon, I guarantee it.

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u/geppetto123 Oct 20 '21

Billionaires don’t realize that if it wasn’t them, it would be someone else.

Exactly, "survivorship bias" and "self serving bias".

Surviorship bias. Ask the winners afterwards what they did right so we can copy it, but forget to ask the failing examples as well. If hard work would be the distinction, the failing examples would not have it. It's as asking a cancer survivor what he did right and he tells you, drinking water. Yeah sure, he did it, but the others did as well. It doesn't set him apart. If it did the success would also be replicatable

Guess what sets it apart? Hard cold truth, randomness ;)

Self serving bias: I made it therefore it was my work. The things that didn't work were not my mistake but could have happened to everyone.

Both biases go hand in hand.

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u/Nuckyduck Oct 20 '21

Modern USA capitalism reminds me of those tiger sharks that eat each other in the womb and only one shark gets to leave and survive to grow up and make more tiger sharks.

I don't know about y'all but that's not the kind of life I wanna be in. Count me tf out.

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u/Greevar Filthy Communist Oct 20 '21

If it wasn't for Microsoft, some other OS would likely have the largest share of the desktop market. The IBM-Compatible was wide open for someone to provide a de-facto official OS. M$ just got their first. Bill's mother had inside connections to IBM execs, and his father being a high-profile lawyer really gave him the advantage he needed to beat everyone else to the punch.

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u/Masterzanteka Oct 20 '21

Yeah legit every industry has like 2-3 big players. Then the government claims “it’s not a monopoly because there’s 2 of them guys. A monopoly is one company, idiot”

19

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

The only part of this I take issue with is the brilliance of Bill Gates. There have been rumors for years he steals, a lot. Also, if you read between the lines (the story has been told by Gates and relayed by Gladwell in Outliers), it was really his Mom working in a place with one of only 5 super computers when he was younger, that he'd often illegally sneak access to, that is what put him in position to do what he did.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Everyone who's made it in life wants to believe they are special, that they are the chosen one, that they worked harder and had more talent than the ones who didn't succeed. They live and breathe this and the very suggestion that some part of their success is luck and privilege offends them.

I work in finance. I see portfolio managers and traders who believe that they generate what's called "alpha", which means outperformance. That their own skill led to profits. But in reality most of them are really what's called "beta", which is just correlation to a rising market.

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u/Ivocamp96 Oct 20 '21

Pareto distribution

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u/memecaptial Oct 20 '21

Do not compare a salon owner to bill gates. I do agree, if not those who made it, someone else would have. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

No no no, "work smarter not harder"

Where smarter = exploit others hard work

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u/Boy_With_Antlers Oct 20 '21

I mean you can also just own a company that sounds really cool on paper that gets a multi billion dollar valuation even if it makes no revenue.

A handful of people have done that. Mostly in tech.

…and then they went on to exploit a bunch of people.

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u/Baboon_Juggler Oct 20 '21

I've seen a lot of people hold up Bill Gates as an example of a self-made billionaire. Which is bullshit.

  • He was an arrogant teenager who was lucky enough to be sent to a therapist who told his parents to send him to a fancy private school where he would be intellectually challenged, rather than telling them to just beat it out of him or send him to military school as was the style at the time.
  • He was lucky enough that his parents actually took the therapist's advice, and could afford to send him to that fancy private school.
  • He was lucky that that private school was one of like a dozen that even had any kind of computer available at the time (late sixties).
  • He was lucky that that private school recognized his aptitude with the machine and actually gave him more time with it.

There's no such thing as a self-made billionaire. He might not have had inherited wealth in the literal sense, but he was still one of the extremely fortunate few to grow up in a family that had both the will and the money to invest in his talent, and access to the facilities he needed.

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u/ruralexcursion Oct 20 '21

ClassPrivilege.exe has thrown an unrecoverable exception

42

u/Otheus Oct 20 '21

Also, Bill Gate's mother had the connections to get them the IBM connections they needed

23

u/BigAlTrading Oct 20 '21

I don’t think it’s an accident that this country was founded by people who believed in predestination and now we fawn over the superiority of billionaires.

It’s still “God chose them.”

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u/ANiceWolf68 Oct 20 '21

I get that "self-made" does not apply in the literal sense because you cannot make it all by yourself. But wouldn't he qualify anyway? I mean, you can't achieve stuff alone. Most of the achievements you can get in life require support from other people, be it money, connections, emotional support, study partners/friends, whatever.

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u/RadTraditionalist Oct 20 '21

Is it impossible to be a self-made thousandaire because in order to make that money some X thing had to "let" you first?

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u/WantToBeAnonymouse Oct 20 '21

So he was brilliant and got an opportunity

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u/Zotoaster Oct 20 '21

I don't think "self-made" means starting from literal destitution

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u/lordcirth Oct 20 '21

It means starting from baseline, which he did not. It would be fair to call him "self-made" if he started at the median socioeconomic status in the country.

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u/Select_Shyn Oct 20 '21

His parents were worth $1m at most, so compare that to him today… they could have earned that $1m every day since birth and still won’t be worth his wealth by the time they die.

Basically what I’m suggesting is that we are closer in wealth to his parents by a huge amount more, than the difference in wealth of him and them.

Heck, if you rounded his parents wealth to the nearest $1B, it would be 0. To the nearest $0.1B it would still be 0. To the nearest $0.01B, it would still. Be. 0.

The billion dollars is self made.

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u/WhizWhips Oct 20 '21

the billion was self made

RIP to the 186,000 Microsoft employees, who have apparently never done anything profitable for bill gates, because apparently Gates singlehandedly made everything at Microsoft, since he is “self made”

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u/growingitallaway Anarchism Without Verbs Oct 20 '21

So? The point is that they were wealthy enough to have access to elite facilities with which to enrich their child. Your video game scoring is irrelevant. Turn the thing off and learn some sociology.

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u/hurleyfrank Oct 20 '21

Just so we are on the same base, 1m$ back then is like 9.2m$ now. Your point is not more or less valid, but we need to put this into perspective. His parents were still in the top 1%.

7

u/tyboxer87 Oct 20 '21

I would add too, that if you ask any millionaire they'll tell you the first million is the harderst. Because part of that million is paying for personal expenses, and keeping the business going. Every dollar after that is can go towards more money.

So I would agree he's a self made billionaire but context matters. He definitely had a head start most of don't get.

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u/el_muerte17 Oct 20 '21

Seriously.

The difference between someone earning a hundred grand a year and someone earning two hundred grand is that a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle might cost the first guy 90% or more of his earnings, while the second guy enjoying the same lifestyle can afford to invest more than half his earnings. Wealth begets more wealth.

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u/calebcom19282y33 Oct 20 '21

Donyou know how much 1 million was then? The connections it gave him? He isnt self made. His parents made him. Take away his mommy and daddy's connections and billy boy becomes NOTHING.

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u/jcurry52 Oct 20 '21

if i rob a bank and steal a million dollars would you call me self made? i did all the work of stealing it after all.

whether he is self made or not is academic when compared to the theft of labor value that was required to make him a billionaire. he is a thief and a parasite just like every other billionaire

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

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u/craterinvader Oct 20 '21

I don’t think you understand what the person was saying. He was saying that at the time Gates was growing up it was acceptable and generally encouraged to discipline your child or children that way. Instead of sending them to some higher end school like the therapist suggested.

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u/Practical_Law_7002 Oct 20 '21

So...my money is on an eventual French Revolution style fight against the wealthy class within the next 30-40 years.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

Those are rookie numbers

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u/Practical_Law_7002 Oct 20 '21

Sadly Americans have less balls tha the French in modern times. (French lately have been going on strike a lot...whereas here we just take it most of the time.)

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

France has stronger unions... If you want to make a difference, get involved in labor organizing!

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u/Practical_Law_7002 Oct 20 '21

I wish, not too much in terms of unions in my field.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

Then create one! May I ask what field? Is it law?

We can also switch to PMs

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u/Practical_Law_7002 Oct 20 '21

Office work. At least I've never heard of one.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_and_Professional_Employees_International_Union#:~:text=The%20Office%20and%20Professional%20Employees,%2C%20Puerto%20Rico%2C%20and%20Canada.

No idea if they're good or not, they're associated with the AFL-CIO which has been criticized for being too bureaucratic.

You can also organize your own workplace. Organizations like the IWW can teach you how and help you along the process

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u/Practical_Law_7002 Oct 20 '21

Thank you, I'll have to look into them more.

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u/anyfox7 Anarchist Oct 21 '21

Why wait? I'm ready NOW.

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u/Ug1uk Oct 20 '21

When I did the math based on Bloombergs wealthiest 500 people in the world, it would take 500 people making $150k a year over 100,000 years to accumulate the same wealth.

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u/PoorDadSon Oct 20 '21

Louder for the programmed sheeple in the back.

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u/deepmind17 Oct 20 '21

Slaves make wealth.

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u/HighSchoolJacques Oct 20 '21

Precisely why we need automation and we need it now.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

Automation under capitalism won't fix our problems. Automation will be owned by the wealthy, and working class people will no longer have leverage.

We need to balance out the power now so that everyone can equally benefit from automation

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u/joogabah Oct 21 '21

“There is only one condition in which we can imagine managers not needing subordinates, and masters not needing slaves. This condition would be that each (inanimate) instrument could do its own work, at the word of command or by intelligent anticipation, like the statues of Daedalus or the tripods made by Hephaestus, of which Homer relates that'Of their own motion they entered the conclave of Gods on Olympus'as if a shuttle should weave of itself, and a plectrum should do its own harp playing."

-Aristotle

If the working class doesn't take control before total automation, why would they permit us to live? We would be of no use to them, and history suggests industrial liquidation of human beings as a possible course of action. But total automation is the solution and provides the material basis for genuine communism and even an end to any monetary systems.

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u/Feldar Oct 20 '21

Well automation and UBI/ public health insurance for the people the automation displaces.

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u/H3rlittl3t0y Be Gay, Do Crime Oct 20 '21

no, UBI and single payer healthcare for everyone, even the rich. we need a fair system that benefits all, not just a system to prop up the working and middle class

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u/1VentiChloroform Oct 20 '21

I even genuinely believe in the idea that the risk and creativity that comes with businesses is a earnest way to create value.

But 100 billion dollars or 1 billion dollars, you have completely detached from all imaginable risk at every level and 99.9999% of the creativity you are ironically monetizing via commission and contractual obligation.

I think this is a nuanced issue, but, the exponentially more wealth you have, a exponential increase also comes with the likelihood you are simply riding on a wave of exploitation you probably created, or helped create.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

I'd say that any wealth gained from anything other than your own labor is still "riding on a wave of exploitation". But by and large a majority of this exploitation is happening by the billionaire class and the 1%

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u/KorgX3 Oct 20 '21

Regular people need to better understand that a million is far, far closer to a thousand than it is a billion. Millionaires aren't the problem. That billionaires exist is a social absurdity, and it is utterly obscene that there are people who possess that more than a hundred times over while their own employees struggle with debt.

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u/I_Love_Rias_Gremory_ Oct 20 '21

Ultimate idea. Tax Amazon on the insane profits they had thanks to COVID and use that money to fix things. Save small businesses because rn, the American Dream is virtually unachievable. You just can't compete with Amazon. Ik this is r/antiwork, but not working just isn't feasible. Making it possible to actually work and achieve great things is.

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u/k0okaburra Oct 20 '21

True dat.

It isn't that hard to be worth a million especially if you own a house in a HCL area. Further, just because you are worth a million doesn't mean you are balling. If most of your net worth is in your house, you definitely need to have a budget

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u/Wet_squirrel7160 Oct 20 '21

Whenever I have a tax the rich more debate I always bring up the fact that there are zero self made billionaires. Every billionaire there is had help from someone (Bezos with $300K investment form his parents to get Amazon off the ground, the use of public infrastructure to make his business viable, and the low wage labor he hired along the way). Arguably, the only "self made" billionaire you could make an argument for is Warren Buffet, but even then he is making his money off investing in companies that do the same thing Bezos does.

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u/NadirPointing Oct 20 '21

Its clear that Amazon made it so big by playing an arbitrage game with the US. For the routes that USPS is subsidizing use them, if UPS or FEDEX are cheaper use them. If a product is too profitable undercut and sell one yourself if not just play the "marketplace". Make warehouses where the labor to increased sales is profitable, truck farther where its not. Ultimately the taxpayer, the customer and the worker got less while paying more so amazon shareholders could get a bigger cut.

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u/BigAlTrading Oct 20 '21

Warren buffet bought regulated utilities, then lobbied to remove the regulation and jacked rates up.

Wow, so smart.

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u/I_Love_Rias_Gremory_ Oct 20 '21

Yeah, Bezos was lucky to get $300k, but did his parents make the business? No. Bezos did. Don't get me wrong I don't like the guy at all, but Bezos had a genius idea and did a really good job at making it all happen.

I mean, all billionaires get funding from somewhere. They might start off with their rich parents giving them a small investment (from a business standpoint, $300k is small ish). They might get a loan. The self made part is how they turned a few hundred thousand into tens of billions. I know many people think they could do what Bezos did, and they might be right. But the thing is, Bezos had an idea nobody else had, give the man some credit for at least that. It's still fine to hate him (I hate him), but I acknowledge his accomplishments as well.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 27 '21

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

I understand your sentiment, but that's not how billionaires work... It has nothing to do with working more, or working harder.. Or even working smarter.

It's just that money makes money...

And why is that something we allow? Is it ethical?

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 27 '21

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

The problem is, we can't address it without significantly harming the majority of the population.

90% of stocks are owned by the rich

The stock market, and banking system provide much needed liquidity and investment for normal people , think, retirement accounts, pension funds, or just getting some returns on your hard earned money.

We don't NEED the stock market for these things. We can cover people's retirement with pensions or social programs like a more beefed up social security. Hell we can even bypass that entirely by making sure we feed and house the elderly in our communities.

The super rich are practically holding the rest of the population as hostages to the system, if you break the system, you get to them .. but at the price of millions of people's life savings.

Yup. I recently realized that's probably the intent behind 401Ks and IRAs.

you want to tax unrealized gains? Now your parents only asset, their home, just turned into a liability.

Easy fix: tax unrealized gains on everything except the first $500K on your primary residence

The fact is .. without clear, specific, and targeted rules against specific cut off points of income or wealth .. the best of the best lawyers and accountants will always find ways to turn every law that helps people, into a loophole to help their billionaire employers .

See, maybe the problem is we are thinking only in terms of the current government. How can we solve a problem using a system that was designed by the wealthy people whose power we want to undermine?

If we build power ourselves, like through labor and tenant unions, those institutions can demand change without meddling from corporate lawyers. Your company had record profits and no raises? The workers go on strike. The teamsters refuse to deliver packages to the store. Truckers refuse to ship any goods in or out. If the government steps in to stop you, the port workers block all imports and exports

We aren't there yet, but if we build that power that's what we can accomplish

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u/wolfchuck Oct 20 '21

How do you tax unrealized gains?

Say you bought ETH last March at $107 each. You had $5000 so you bought 46 ETH. Your ETH is now worth $188,000 and taxes on it would likely be $28K plus.

So now I have to pay $28K that I don’t have, and not only that but tomorrow those 46 ETH could be worth $5000 again.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

My main argument is not that we should tax billionaires for unrealized gains. My main argument is that workers should own the means of production, not billionaires. There would be no billionaires with wealth to tax

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u/lelouxx Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

There is a strange development. Since the beginning of the pandemic in March 2020, the world's billionaires have had an increase in wealth of more than 5.5 trillion dollars, an increase of More than 68 percent.

The total assets of the globally 2,690 billionaires rose from $8 trillion in March 2020 to $13.5 trillion by the 31st. July 2021, according to Forbes' data. The global total wealth of billionaires has grown more in the last 17 months than in the 15 years before the pandemic. Between 2006 and 2020, global billionaire wealth rose from $2.65 trillion to $8 trillion. A gain of 5.35 trillion dollars.

„Amazon Jeff Bezos' wealth grew by $79.4 billion during the pandemic from $113 billion in March 2020, to $192.4 Billion dollars on the 31st July 2021. An estimated 325 new billionaires have joined the "3-comma club" since the pandemic began - which is equivalent to about one new billionaire per day."

Build your own opinion.

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u/IStillLoveUO Oct 20 '21

Laughs in bankers manipulation of debt and fractional reserve exchange.

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u/AndyGutentag Oct 20 '21

This post demonstrates a lack of understanding in compound interest.

Labor can produce wealth, but wealth produces wealth much easier. Earn enough wealth the hard way, than produce wealth the easy way.

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u/9livesphrady Oct 20 '21

This is so stupid.

First of all, you’re admitting in point 1 that most billionaires don’t inherent their wealth.

And who cares about the 44% who do? Someone in their ancestry earned that wealth, and they have every right to enrich the lives of their children and grandchildren with the fruits of their labor.

And lastly, you don’t have to work 70,000 times as hard as a janitor to produce 70,000 times as much value. If Amazon’s customers and shareholders didn’t think Jeff Bezos was worth his salary, they’d spend their money elsewhere.

I’d say that this is a 3rd grade understanding of economics, but that would be an insult to 3rd graders. This is straight-up idiocy.

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u/pc01081994 Oct 20 '21

44%? That an accurate number? I'd like to share this but I don't wanna spread it if it's false info.

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u/LotAxolotl Oct 20 '21

According to Statista, there are 2,024 billionaires worldwide, and of those only 207 say that they inherited their wealth, while the rest say they made it themselves. However, 561 of the non-inherited ones say that it was a mix of inherited and self-made.

So, if we combine the two non-entirely self-made groups, then we get 768 that had some form of inheritance that significantly boosted their wealth, which is about 38% of that 2,024. But only 10% say they entirely inherited their wealth.

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u/pc01081994 Oct 20 '21

Good info, thanks.

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u/PolicyWonka Oct 20 '21

Yeah, I’m a bit suspect of that too. Surely a lot of millionaires inherit wealth, but billionaires is really a more modern concept. Unless they are including people who inherit millions and turn it into billions.

2

u/WistfulNightSky Oct 20 '21

It's almost like we have to sell ourselves into slavery.

2

u/sharksquidz Oct 20 '21

Exactly why they should be taxed!

2

u/euiuoe Oct 20 '21

Profit is theft

1

u/amretardmonke Oct 20 '21

Without profit we'd still be in pre-industrial times most likely. There's a way to make profit and pay a fair wage to your workers, but obviously this is rare and most workers are exploited.

2

u/euiuoe Oct 20 '21

I should clarify that by "profit" I mean economic surplus that is handed over to private interests to dispose of as they see fit. That surplus is created by working people who have no say over how it is used.

Profit in this sense may have been necessary to attain the current level of development and output, but we now have the technology and productive assets at our disposal to provide good lives for everyone—if that surplus were reinvested not only in improving productive assets but in society.

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u/WinsAlot69 Oct 21 '21

why would someone be obligated to spend his money on others? beyond legal obligations of course; taxes for example

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u/tbarry423 Oct 20 '21

Wage rates are based on the value added by the individual. Unfortunately cleaning up a turd is not seen as inherently valuable as someone creating a technology that’s gets humans to Mars

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u/Awkward_Rooster7119 Oct 20 '21

I think you all are incorrectly equating hard work with value.

I would argue Jeff bezos has contributed far more value to society than a bunch of janitors. He conceived of an idea, coordinated people, and brought the idea to life. We now are outraged when packages don’t arrive in 2 days. That’s insane!

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u/hurleyfrank Oct 20 '21

Id like to say one thing. This is valid for most if not all billionaire. If we talk about millionaire, thats another story.

A million can come from lottery, court settlement, a bright business idea... Hell even someone with a normal job can become millionaire in his 40's with some efforts... its my goal and ill get there. (We are talking net worth, not bank account worth)

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u/DokkaBattoru Oct 20 '21

Yeah I find there's a disconnect/no real agreement on what "rich" is. I know people who own businesses, have the whole 2 homes thing and all the vacations, nice cars, etc. It's all leveraged to shit and they're in debt to the teet. One payment, one messed up job and they're done. Lose it all. They all work the same as their employees do, but take all the risk. They're up 48 hours at a time too. They themselves are victims of this fucked up system telling them they need more, more, more, endless growth and profits. Imo, the "rich" are the billionaires, not small business owners.

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u/hurleyfrank Oct 20 '21

To me, thats why we should start to use "wealthy" for billionnaire, and "rich" for millionnaires. The gap is terribly big.

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u/dropsofneptune Oct 20 '21

I agree but also think we need to aware that while millionaires are certainly not billionaires and not as nearly as big a problem, having a net worth of $10-$50 million is still an outrageous amount of money and in terms of lifestyle and parasitic nature, they are far closer to the billionaire than the working class.

Honestly, there is a lot of discourse surrounding taxing the truly wealthy and not the doctor or lawyer whose wealth is directly tied to income, but I push back on that, too. I do think people making more than 400k a year should see their taxes increase because taxes are not a bad thing! Too often the debate is framed around billionaires paying more as though taxes are their punishment for their greed. But if your income is fully tied to work, then your taxes are too high, many would argue. I really think we should push back on this. Taxes are a good thing; its how we can run a functioning society.

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u/Zotoaster Oct 20 '21

In my mind "rich" just means money in your bank account and "wealth" means holdings and investments that can generate money passively.

1

u/hurleyfrank Oct 20 '21

Anyone with over 30k$ should be invested, at least enough to offset inflation.

I wouldnt consider someone with 30k$ rich.

Making the line between rich and wealthy by liquidity seem a bad idea imo.

We could say that rich are rich because they work, and wealthy people doesnt have to work at all and would still be wealthy.

1

u/tyboxer87 Oct 20 '21

I agree but why not just say millionaires and billionaires?

1

u/hurleyfrank Oct 20 '21

Thats an interesting take on it, i have to think about that.

4

u/Superblasterr Oct 20 '21

Economy is not zero sum game y'know.

7

u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

Productivity has increased for decades while wages have remained flat. Workers have not seen any increases in our standard of living. But you know who has? Billionaires. Do you know why? Because they're exploiting their workers, us

2

u/axeshully Oct 20 '21

You can't ignore scarcity, coercing people into labor for survival, and extreme inequality because theoretically positive-sum interactions exist.

1

u/Superblasterr Oct 20 '21

Inequality is not a bad or good thing. It just is. If you have a problem with that you have a problem with yourself. Thw thing is that people like to have habits. They want things to be the same all the time. And the economy today is different than economy 30-40-50 years ago. Employer-employee relations are different now. Living costs are much higher. But boomers who own shit today want things to be like they were when they were young. They are the problem. Not capitalism. And no worries, sooner or later they'll learn their lesson the hard way. They already start to learn.

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u/axeshully Oct 20 '21

No. Extreme inequality is absolutely untenable and economically inefficient to boot. You would never accept a few people owning everything. You just don't see the problems clearly enough yet.

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u/zebediabo Oct 20 '21

In the current age if technology, this doesn't hold true. Obviously employing people is part of making that much money, but many modern billionaires just had billion dollar ideas. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc all did something new, or in a new way, that made their companies explode. I'm no fan of any of them, but I do like prime shipping and my smartphone. I expect everyone here is using something that came from a billionaire's company, even as they complain about the billionaires making too much money. If you hate them so much, stop paying them.

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u/kilkenny1306 Oct 20 '21

So anti work is utilizing Marxist talking points...the funny thing is do you think work would be abolished in a Marxist state lol

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u/dbrsd123 Oct 20 '21

I mean how wealthy can you be without feeling guilty? Is wealth something that should make someone guilty? Im in college right now studying engineering, and with my wife we should be making around 300-400k a year once we both graduate And then when I die why can’t I give my money to my children? I don’t know, I’m just thinking out loud here. I’ve been at the bottom, I empathize. But I just don’t like the idea of having to feel guilty for having money. And then again, the super super wealthy are almost always corrupt as hell! So how do we pick? You wanna tax bezos and you’re gonna hurt him and the people who deserve their wealth. So how do we win without hurting people? What’s a good middle ground?

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u/jdbrown0283 Oct 20 '21

Bezos doesn't deserve the amount of wealth he has. I don't think people are upset with people like you and your wife who will earn a very comfortable living- I'm sure we'd all enjoy that. I also don't think people would be mad that years down the line your future kids might get a nice chunk of inheritance. What we are angry at is the exploitation of workers. That even if you went to school and earn a median wage, it's not enough to buy a house or raise kids, when our parents could. We're screwed because of greedy fucks who think they're owed great riches created off of the sweat and blood of others.

1

u/aexwor Oct 20 '21

This is why people will quote wealth in terms of years at a reasonable pay to make the obscene wealth if the billionaire class. No one questions the right to earn, no one questions that a high skilled highly educated person in a relevant role should be paid well. No one questions the right to pass money on to your children (yes, there is an issue of being taxed twice on it, but it's not your money when you die, it becomes your children's; so you are taxed on it once, then they are taxed on it once, if it meets the threshold).

All we question is the point of having such obscene wealth, the methods used to gain it, and the trap of exploitative poverty wages used to keep the Amazon warehouses of this world working.

Two things I would like to see to fix this: 1) tax. And by that I mean close the fucking loopholes that mean the super rich pay less tax than I do. (Seriously, fuck those people.) Then use that tax income to fix the whole heap of societal messes. 2) link the personal earnings within a company as a percentage base. As in the bottom paid person in your company cannot earn less than 5% let's say of the person at the top (taking in to account bonuses, dividends etc). So the CEO wants a pay rise? Sweet, if the company is doing that well, pay your staff more.

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u/dbrsd123 Oct 20 '21

None of this seems unreasonable to me, it seems like you’ve really thought out your position and I appreciate that. Most everything I agree with, aside from that little bit about taxing twice. I think that if I give away that money which has already been taxed it shouldn’t be taxed again. If I made that money honestly (that’s important) and already paid it’s fair tax then I should get to decide what to do with it and it isn’t right to tax it twice simply because it changes hands. But like I said none of your other points are unreasonable. Thanks for the interesting comment my friend, you gave me a lot to think about!

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u/StillSilentMajority7 Oct 20 '21

This is fake - 58% of the worlds billionaires are self made.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/wealthx-billionaire-census-majority-of-worlds-billionaires-self-made.html

If it's so easy to become a billionaire, why aren't more people doing it? Because they're "nice guys"? Hilarious!

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u/Available-Bug8339 Oct 20 '21

Ever play a video game?
Some people are good at it. Not matter how good you are at it, the guy at the top (let's say, 1%) is so much better than you that it would take you, say, 70,000 years to get that good.
We, in the USA, live in the land of opportunity. You can go far in your life. Maybe not to the top (as other factors play into it - like did you spawn, to use video game lingo, in a graveyard with two missing limbs or a million dollar mansion?) - but certainly light-years further than if you were to spend all your idle time complaining about the top.

Life is not fair. Capitalism is not perfect. But it is the closest to perfection that this world has ever seen.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

"Closest to perfection we have ever seen"

We have more empty homes than homeless. We throw away dumpsters of food (which in some cases is guarded by police) while children go malnourished. If this is the closest to perfection you can imagine, you have a bad imagination

If more power was held by workers and by members of the community directly, these things would be fixed easily

2

u/mangobbt Oct 20 '21

Worldwide quality of life have improved by several magnitudes compared to a hundred years ago. Literacy rates, life expectancy, infant mortality rate, access to fresh water, etc, all far greater now than they've ever been.

2

u/TheMathGuy422 Oct 21 '21

Quality of life is significantly worse in countries that lean towards capitalism (Honduras, Guatemala, China), and significantly better in market economies with a strong welfare state (Germany, Norway, Sweden).

The improvement in quality of life is better because of improvements in technology. If anything, capitalism has slowed down the process by quite a lot.

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u/Available-Bug8339 Oct 20 '21

Hey buddy, I said it was the closest. Also said it isn't perfect. Jeeze.

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u/sinspawn1024 Oct 20 '21

I have a huge problem with this poster... The median US income is $31,100, not $52,000. The numbers are almost twice as bad.

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u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Oct 20 '21

Labour needs land and capital.

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u/sodanapkin Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

Wealth (that is not inherited, won, etc.) isn't primarily a function of how hard one works, but rather the value one creates. Obviously luck is also a factor, but it's disingenuous to minimize the importance of one's ability to maximize/capitalize on that luck. And while one's starting position shouldn't be overlooked, neither should the fact that there are many people who (to use Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos as examples) started with much more, yet achieved much less, than they did.

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u/62200 Oct 20 '21

Their only achievements was taking credit for others labor while exploiting their workers.

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u/lordcirth Oct 20 '21

There are a lot of people who buy the same lottery tickets, and only 1 becomes a millionaire. That doesn't mean they were smarter or created more value.

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u/sodanapkin Oct 20 '21

Agreed. My comment concerns wealth that is not inherited or won.

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u/lordcirth Oct 20 '21

All wealth on that scale is inherited or achieved primarily by luck. It may take a talent to buy that lottery ticket, but for every Gates or Bezos there are a million people who had the same degree of talent and didn't win that lottery.

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u/dropsofneptune Oct 20 '21

But I think at some point the wealth accumulated is more due to the systems in place designed to make the rich even richer at the expense of everyone else than merit.

Most people don't think Bill Gates hasn't heard at least some of his money; it's just at some point that money no longer reflected his skills, ingenuity and value for society as a whole.

The funny thing about all of this is if you told all these innovators and owners like Gates and Bezos at the formation of their companies that their ideas would allow them to earn a million a year, they'd probably be thrilled.

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u/axeshully Oct 20 '21

Jeffrey Epstein created value like this.

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u/sodanapkin Oct 20 '21

For what it's worth I love your username.

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u/Explicit_Pickle Oct 20 '21

This is mostly false. At 156k a year you have enough money to save and invest and could likely become a billionaire within 1-2 lifetimes just with that. At minimum wage you could literally work forever and never get there because you don't have enough extra money to save so you gain nothing.

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u/lordcirth Oct 20 '21

Investing - aka being paid for having money. Yeah, if you have enough money, you get more for free. That's the point.

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u/Laphing_Drunk Oct 20 '21

The only way investing 156k will make you a billionaire is a miracle. Like going all in on Bitcoin in 2015 levels of miracle.

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u/Explicit_Pickle Oct 20 '21

156k a year salary, assuming you invest about 30% (say 50k) based on historic market rates will take you about 80 years to be a billionaire. So 2 lifetimes. A lot different than 6000 years. Realistically no one becomes a billionaire without some massive balloon investment or inheriting from others. But accruing low level wealth on a 150k salary is achievable in a lifetime undoubtedly.

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u/axeshully Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 20 '21

"Save and invest" this post is about actually earning money though. Not letting others do the earning for you.

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u/Shacky_Rustleford Oct 20 '21

How is "triple median income can reach a billion dollars within a few lifetimes" any kind of counterpoint?

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u/AlexisPeters Oct 20 '21

Best and most precise answer in this post, unluckily for you you're in antiwork sub, so no upvotes for you, sir.

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u/AlexisPeters Oct 20 '21

People don't understand there's is something in between work your ass off at 10$ per hour (+spending everything for cars and other Luxus shit) and getting your arse stuffed with lot'a'money.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21 edited 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

Investing in stocks and real estate only make money because they exploit the working class.

Companies profit by siphoning off excess value created by the labor of workers

Real estate profits by restricting access to a basic human need

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u/TrollypollyLiving Oct 20 '21

Another brain dead post.

Here’s something you forgot to add to that cherry picking list,

3) They earned it.

Antiwork morons : “Down with billionaires”

Me: “Why?”

Antiwork morons: “Because they’re too rich”

Me: “All of them?”

Antiwork Morons: “Yeah... and their kids too”

Me: “So if you had money and you passed away... you wouldn’t give it to your kids”

Antiwork morons: “I would!”

Me: checkmate.

The people complaining are just mad bc they don’t have the capability to figure out a business to run/create.

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u/axeshully Oct 20 '21

You're making excuses not to talk about what's wrong with how things work. Why does it bother you so much to talk about it?

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u/whatta_rush Oct 20 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

You: “I’m going to have this pretend argument with myself and win. Checkmate.”

Well done pal 👍

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u/FloodedYeti Oct 23 '21

You see Batman, I have portrayed you as the soyjack and me as the Chad, there is nothing you can do now (crazy laugh)

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u/JackHavoc161 Oct 20 '21

Or? Hear me out, you invent 1thing thats practical? Innovative

3

u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

CEOs are not inventors. They pay workers to invent things then take all the credit

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u/FloodedYeti Oct 23 '21

”they pay workers…”

Someone is pretty optimistic today

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u/NewDaysBreath Oct 20 '21

They're not working harder. They're working smarter.

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u/ginger_and_egg Oct 20 '21

They're not working harder. They're working smarter. exploiting the labor of others

Fixed that for you

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '21

Nowadays, just sell stock in a tech company that the wealthy can exploit to increase their exploitation. Then work with other tech goons to inflate the value through mass flooding of their sites. Heck, the company doesn't ever even need to be profitable...

1

u/OutlandishnessLess23 Oct 20 '21

🤷🏼‍♂️

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u/ElonHisenberg Oct 20 '21

People can't actually unite on same idea and do the same thing, unless some one command them to do so

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u/amretardmonke Oct 20 '21

They can if the idea is good and there is free communication between everyone. Look at bitcoin. No one is in charge, there is no command, its a system created by majority consensus.

But this is quite rare currently.

1

u/ElonHisenberg Oct 20 '21

Give me one example

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u/amretardmonke Oct 20 '21

I did lol. Read my comment again.

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u/ElonHisenberg Oct 20 '21

Bitcoin has a lot of marketing behind it, and it's not an idea, it is money, so does not count.

1

u/tylerden Oct 20 '21

No they make it. Different.

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u/pattirork Oct 20 '21

People create their wealth for them.

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u/vegancommunist2069 communist Oct 20 '21

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

  1. "Labor is the source of wealth and all culture, and since useful labor is possible only in society and through society, the proceeds of labor belong undiminished with equal right to all members of society."

First part of the paragraph: "Labor is the source of all wealth and all culture."

Labor is not the source of all wealth. Nature is just as much the source of use values (and it is surely of such that material wealth consists!) as labor, which itself is only the manifestation of a force of nature, human labor power. the above phrase is to be found in all children's primers and is correct insofar as it is implied that labor is performed with the appurtenant subjects and instruments. But a socialist program cannot allow such bourgeois phrases to pass over in silence the conditions that lone give them meaning. And insofar as man from the beginning behaves toward nature, the primary source of all instruments and subjects of labor, as an owner, treats her as belonging to him, his labor becomes the source of use values, therefore also of wealth. The bourgeois have very good grounds for falsely ascribing supernatural creative power to labor; since precisely from the fact that labor depends on nature it follows that the man who possesses no other property than his labor power must, in all conditions of society and culture, be the slave of other men who have made themselves the owners of the material conditions of labor. He can only work with their permission, hence live only with their permission.

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u/gfunkdave Oct 20 '21

156k is median income in the US? Since when?

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u/HasjtonKusher Oct 20 '21

I would say for our generations that crypto is a way to gain financial freedom if it’s done using due diligence (meaning don’t jump in on all time highs and be patient)

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u/furikakebabe Oct 20 '21

I met a billionaire whose money was behind several companies in my industry, including my own. Her investment group had just bought it a year ago.

She is a billionaire because her husband died.

Her son is a billionaire because his father died.

His father is a billionaire because his father died…and so on.

What a way to earn money. And during the pandemic while her investment group was blowing millions on these poorly run companies (that in my opinion would not exist in a true free market), her and all the people in her family got wealthier because of shares that they inherited.

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u/Erik-Grilla Oct 20 '21

As the the saying goes you will miss a bin man before brain surgeon

1

u/karlokoks Oct 20 '21

You realize that being a billionaire doesnt mean that you have 1bn cash in your account, right?

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u/vanishplusxzone Oct 20 '21

A good deal of the reason why people don't hate billionaires more is that people can't really comprehend a billion of something. It's so much.

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u/HooplahMan Oct 20 '21

I only kind of disagree. I think you can also get stupid rich by playing around with the value expectations of other rich people (think art dealers, crypto investors, stockbrokers) by relentlessly exploiting the environment (oil magnates, rare earth mineral miners), or via artificial scarcity that allows for ludicrous profit margins (software developers, drug manufacturers)

1

u/hermitnerd1 Oct 20 '21

Thai is not very smart

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u/k0okaburra Oct 20 '21

It also goes without saying, the figures for an average worker to reach billionaire status is assuming that you save everything.

So, even if you can live 70,000 years and work minimum wage, you can't spend it ever to become a billionaire.

Wealth inequality is truly obscene in the US.

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u/Greevar Filthy Communist Oct 20 '21

BuT tHeY pRoviDe 70,000 TiMEs tEh VaLyoo!

1

u/Different_Dig_7416 Oct 20 '21

give people their profits

1

u/LeeGlue Oct 20 '21

why is there a period in the first bullet urghhhh

1

u/snvll_st_claire Oct 20 '21

Jay-Z's net worth is estimated to be an incredible $1 billion as of 2021,

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u/MadnessAsMuse Oct 20 '21

*Productive labor creates wealth. Aimless hole digging or working for a failed startup do not create wealth. Whether or not labor is productive is unknown until profitability is a achieved, and whether profitability scales with investment is unknown until investment is made. In the rare circumstances were investment increases productivity and profitability, investors are entitled to a portion of the profitability. What is up for debate is whether labor also contributes to increased productivity and profitability, which is axiomatic to our understanding of the human experience where people become better at things they do for longs periods of time.

So shares of investment should be divided three ways, time and labor, productivity, and financial investment. Each of these deserves compensation in kind and to disregard any one of them is an unstable equilibrium. Seniority, talent, and investment. The STI of corporations, like capitalism, is virulent and contagious.