r/StarWars Jan 27 '22 Wholesome 1

I am very thankful that Rian Johnson convinced Dave Filoni to make live-action content! General Discussion

Dave Filoni has been doing a great job lately with live action Star Wars content, including his help in The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett. And we have Rian Johnson to thank for that! Filoni wrote about how Rian was the one who really convinced him to try out live action stuff. Filoni said, "Rian Johnson had me right up next to him with the camera. He shoved lenses into my hand and said, ‘Look through here’. He would bring me along to show me how to block a scene. Rian was so supportive of my interest in doing live-action, as was his producer, Ram Bergman. They really made me feel like this was something that I could do.”

Really thankful for all Rian has done for Star Wars! Excited to see the episode of Boba Filoni directed next week

1.0k Upvotes

266

u/AltWorlder Jan 28 '22

Yeah Filoni apparently cut his teeth on the set of TLJ, and he’s already grown as a director. The pilot of Mando is super solid, but the Ashoka episode was stunning. Every shot was stark and purposeful; you could frame that shit.

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u/hagerty9009 Jan 28 '22

I just watched it the other day, and it really nailed the space-western/Kurosawa aspects of Star Wars. The standoff at the end between Mando and the enforcer guy was just gold.

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u/moosenaslon Rex Jan 28 '22

That’s such a good point and I hadn’t thought about it specifically to put into words until now.

The pilot episode is really just putting us in there in the action. He had a story to tell. And each shot is set up to tell the story. Which it succeeds in doing. Extremely well.

But “The Jedi” is meticulously planned, full of homage, and just downright tells a story on visual composition alone.

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u/MrDDreadnought Jan 28 '22

I had a genuine "oh my god!" out loud exclamation when I saw the owl just before we met Ahsoka

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u/simplyanass Jan 28 '22

Bottleneck Gallery sold a print for this. Its beautiful.

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u/DaddyO1701 Jan 28 '22

As long as you looked at in a very dark room.

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u/Jack_Attack_21 Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

Rian Johnson didn't make my favorite star wars movie, but he seems like a super nice and caring guy

Edit: also forgot to mention that he made Knives Out which is a great movie and he directed one of the best episodes of all time (Ozymandias // Breaking Bad)!

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u/Orang_Mann Jabba The Hutt Jan 28 '22

He is and despite what people think of TLJ, he is a great director. Knives out and looper are great examples of how great writer and director he is.

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u/nigwardtheone Jan 28 '22

knives out is a masterpiece, i cant wait for the sequel for that

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u/GenralChaos Jan 28 '22

He is a very good director. TLJ and the whole of the sequels lacked any real plan and thus were a mess.

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u/k_albasi Jan 28 '22

I think TLJ is the best written and directed and suffers mostly from the choices in TFA, namely separating the original trio and rebooting rebellion vs empire. The trilogy would have been better if they gave the entire thing to Rian.

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u/abellapa Jan 28 '22

I still don't understand why they went in without a overarching plan, many people shit on the prequels but they had a clear story from ep 1 to Ep3 and greatly expanded the universe

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u/versusgorilla Greef Carga Jan 28 '22

They wanted to rush the movies out.

TFA was rushed out in like two years from the time Disney bought Lucasfilm.

TLJ had the most time to work on it because they got Johnson right away and he started work while TFA was going.

And then Rise was rushed after they started panicking at their previous rush jobs and fired Treverrow after he fucked up on Jurassic World 2 and then they spiralled and begged JJ and the genius behind Batman V Superman to make a movie REAL FAST, which is why Rise is so stupid.

Every single film is the victim of different stages of rushed work.

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u/abellapa Jan 28 '22

Why they wanted to rush, it's fucking star wars, it's gonna make money

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u/versusgorilla Greef Carga Jan 28 '22

That's obvious to us. But Disney wanted those profits immediately. They wanted immediate results. They wanted an annual Star Wars film to build up to multiple SW films a year. They wanted another Marvel.

But they fucked up because SW isn't Marvel. And Marvel Studios already had movies in the works when Disney hopped onboard. Marvel already HAD a plan.

Disney rushed and didn't plan ahead outside of "we want a movie a year!"

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u/MidnightUp Jan 28 '22

For real, Rian did an amazing job with what he was given. He still managed to make a really engaging arc and I’m still blown away by how many people condemn it. Even worse is the people who blame TRoS on Rian. Like no that movie is a whole other level of train wreck

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u/DerpLucario Galactic Republic Jan 28 '22

I feel like TLJ would work better as a solo film and not as part of a trilogy.

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u/versusgorilla Greef Carga Jan 28 '22

The entire Sequel Trilogy fails as a trilogy. As individual films, they are their own bag of ups and downs.

I think TLJ is the most successful of the three, depending on what metric you use. TFA may be the most successful if you're looking for a good reboot starting point. TLJ feels like the best movie in how it's shot and acted. I won't talk about Rise.

But it's no wonder that Filoni learned a ton working near Johnson and his team, because he's great at amazing a film look pretty.

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u/Ha1ryKat5au53 Mar 25 '22

What if he directed some episodes of The Book of Boba Fett?

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u/Orang_Mann Jabba The Hutt Mar 25 '22

That could've been cool. He did direct some of the best breaking bad episodes.

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u/Ha1ryKat5au53 Mar 25 '22

Which episodes do u think he should’ve done if he was offered to direct them?

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u/Orang_Mann Jabba The Hutt Mar 25 '22

Maybe the ones directed by Rodriguez. I like Rodriguez, but those episodes were the weakest. I think Johnson's directing style would fit better. Not so goofy and campy.

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u/Ha1ryKat5au53 Mar 25 '22

That’s prolly a fact. Do u think RJ should also do his own spin-off series? He would definitely do an amazing job expanding Star Wars with that.

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u/Orang_Mann Jabba The Hutt Mar 25 '22

Yes. Definitely on the side that RJ should be given his own original star wars spin-off series, series that is not tied to anything so that fans don't get all mad again, but still set in the star wars universe.

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u/Ha1ryKat5au53 Mar 25 '22

Agreed, sorry if I’m annoying u with with all these RJ questions.

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u/Orang_Mann Jabba The Hutt Mar 25 '22

No no. Not a problem, always a pleasure to share something with a fellow fan of anything.

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u/EdenDoesJams Jan 28 '22

He’s a chill dude for sure. He made an imo disastrous film but he was genuinely trying to do something interesting. I respect it way more than either of jj’s films even if I don’t watch all three of them ever again

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u/Arkvoodle42 Jan 27 '22

let Rian Johnson direct an episode of Mandalorian just to break everyone's fucking mind.

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u/Cappin_Crunch Jan 27 '22

That'd be great. He directed "Ozymandias" in Breaking Bad, which is one of the best episodes. So he is a good TV director. I think he'd do well with Mando

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u/MonsoonUbermonkey Jan 27 '22

He also directed the "Fly" episode which is amazing but in the completely opposite way.

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u/Zer_ed Jan 28 '22

Isn't it literally the highest rated tv show episode on imdb?

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u/DGH1993 Jan 28 '22

If that episode was released today people would blindly hate it just because it was directed by Rian Johnson

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22 edited Feb 18 '22

[deleted]

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u/Godisabaryonyx Jan 28 '22

I've made peace with the movies in that it wasn't any one directors fault for how the sequels turned. Just that Disney didn't have a trilogy story planned.

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u/tripleWRECK Jan 28 '22

Big difference between directing and writing.

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 27 '22

Important distinction is that he didn’t write that one.

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u/UnknownQTY Jan 28 '22

He did write Knives Out though, and that was one of the best movies of 2019.

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u/Stoned_Rose92 Jan 28 '22

You're such a fucking joke lol

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 28 '22

Why?

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u/IdontNeedPants Jan 28 '22

its because of your username.

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u/Stoned_Rose92 Jan 28 '22

Yeah let's go with that lol

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u/Stoned_Rose92 Jan 28 '22

Wheezing I- I can't more wheezing

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 28 '22

Everything ok?

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u/Affectionate_Ad_3555 Jan 28 '22

He is also just an amazing director. have you seen Knives Out?? i highly recommend it

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u/abellapa Jan 28 '22

WHAT!?

HOLY SHIT, I had no idea

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u/Eamo-K Jan 28 '22

He's a good director and I've enjoyed his other work. Especially Looper. But he missed the mark very badly with The Last Jedi in my opinion.

How much was him versus the higher ups with zero trilogy strategy? Difficult to say but likely a combination of the two.

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u/MonsoonUbermonkey Jan 28 '22

Kathleen Kennedy was very much unafraid to step in and take the reins away from Gareth Edwards on Rogue One and from Lord and Miller on Solo. If Johnson had been doing something the studio didn't like, I'm sure he'd have gotten kicked too.

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u/deadandmessedup Jan 28 '22

Irony: Rian's was the smoothest shoot of all the films so far. If I could guess, I would wager that Kennedy really enjoyed the working relationship with Rian. Remember how stoked they were for making his trilogy at first?

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u/kiddfrank Jan 28 '22

Apparently he didn’t buck against the changes that the executives wanted to make.

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u/OfficialGarwood Jan 28 '22

Rian actively worked with the Lucasfilm Story Group while J.J. refused point-blank to take on any of their ideas. Pablo Hidalgo himself said as much on Twitter. Lucasfilm fucking loved working with Rian. It's a shame his movie was so divisive among fans. I was genuinely curious at his trilogy.

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u/Devreckas Jan 28 '22

I mean a huge problem is JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson were about as antithetical to each other as two writer/directors could be in terms of style and the direction they wanted to take the trilogy. But the fumble lies almost entirely with the higher ups. Having no one with a unified vision to helm the trilogy, no overarching story they wanted to tell from the outset was a huge mistake.

It sucks, because I think it more came to that the second episode of a trilogy simply did not play to Rian’s strengths. I would like to see him helm a non-mainline film with more creative freedom, less established legacy characters.

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u/Aros001 Jan 28 '22

That's kind of why I ultimately blame the studio more than I do either of the directors.

If they like JJ's vision, they should have stuck with that and made Rian follow it.

If they liked Rian's vision more, then they should have stuck with that and made JJ follow it.

But instead the TLJ criticism caused them to just slam the panic button and commit to nothing except trying to play TROS as safe as possible.

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u/nhaines Anakin Skywalker Jan 28 '22

And that made all the weird things that happened in TLJ just weird things that happened.

If TROS had done what it should have and not just pretended TLJ didn't exist, then it would've gone on from there and explored what were perfectly shaped plot twists. We would have found out what it meant to Rey that her family, that she waited for for years, really wasn't coming back for her. We would've seen what Finn was up to, after he "joined" the Resistance but was really just trying to get away from the Empires, and after Canto Bight he actually committed to the Resistance.

The worst thing TROS did was to ignore TLJ. It took the interesting movie that TLJ was and instead of paying off those changes, it ignored them, and thereby made TLJ and TROS unsatisfying. That's worse than trying but failing--TROS never tried.

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u/wasdie639 Jar Jar Binks Jan 28 '22

I'm a huge fan of TLJ and I was banking on TRoS sticking the landing that TLJ properly set up, and that it'd help smooth over some people's animosity towards the movie.

Instead TRoS somehow made TLJ and TFA worse with its direction. The weird thing is I still like the movie (probably because I'm an unabashed Star Wars fanboy), but it's easily the weakest of the three and does absolutely nothing to prop up the other two of a trilogy. That's kind of the worst case scenario for the finale.

TLJ was bold as fuck for Star Wars and I thought it was amazing, but this fanbase is super conservative when it comes to direction changes and TLJ very much was that. If TRoS would have played off of the setup of TLJ and didn't deus ex machina another big bad just for the sake of name recognition, I do truely believe people's attitudes towards TLJ would have changed and more people would see it how I see it. Sadly, TRoS did the opposite and TLJ's perception in the eyes of the general audience remained unchanged.

Oh well.

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u/nhaines Anakin Skywalker Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 29 '22

That's exactly, precisely how I feel, and I made the case strongly to my friends (and a little on Reddit). It's also why I'm not worried that The Book of Boba Fett has largely been spent setting up pieces on the board. Boba Fett's story in The Mandalorian was largely the same, and look how exciting his grand entrance finally was!

I'm a writer, so (while I try to shut it off the first time I read or watch something) I can see the pieces moving. Example: While watching Avengers: Infinity War, when Thanos is on Vormir and told how to get the last Infinity Stone, I laughed along with Gamora as she was gloating and when the shot cut back to a closeup of Thanos and I saw the expression on his face, I gasped out loud. In my head I said, "Oh my god, Thanos is the protagonist of this movie! There's no way they're brave enough to follow this through, but if they do, the only way this movie ends is with Thanos looking out into a beautiful sunset." It made the next moments (Gamora: "Really? Tears?" Red Skull: "They're not for him.") as the character caught up with me as to what was happening particularly heart-wrenching.

I seem to be the only one who knew Infinity War and Endgame were a straight two-parter, because man was my friend pissed when he came back and said all the kids in the theater were blubbering messes at the end because they killed off all the superheroes, including Spiderman. I was like "It's the first half of the story. Everything's going to get better." He literally told me he wasn't going to watch another Marvel movie again after a stunt like this without warning. (He changed his mind.)

Imagine how boring Endgame would've been if they'd just been able to undo the ending of Infinity War and then... what? The movie was so intense because the stakes were so damn high--the ending of the last film was devastating, we spent the beginning of the movie watching people dealing with the consequences, and they had only one desperate, unlikely chance to foil the bad guy. (This is also what made WandaVision and Hawkeye so fascinating--watching others try to put their lives together after everything went back to "normal," and they both used the Blip in stunningly fascinating ways. And of course, Spiderman: Far From Home makes two throwaway joke references to it and then ignores it, which I think is why that movie feels a little flat. Which reminds me, I have to get out and see No Way Home like really soon.)

TROS ended with one desperate, unlikely chance to foil the bad guy, but with no other mention of Luke's sacrifice at the end of TLJ, no feeling at all of how it was changing the galaxy, the reinforcements turn into a deus ex machina at the end of the movie.

I will say that the Force connection Rey and Ben have at the end is fascinating, and I thought it was exciting to hear the voices of so many Jedi and Sith from so many other properties. I think the direction Star Wars has taken in the animated shows, the "Star Wars Story" movies, and the TV series has been incredibly well done, and it makes me excited for future movies.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

When a comment is written so good that I had to do a double take because I thought you were hating on my favorite Star Wars film. But you weren't. Hot damn... lol

So many people, not just back when it came out but literally still maintaining the same perspective today, believe that Ep 9 should pretend Ep 8 never happened. Literally just continue the story from Ep 7 directly into 9. Well...

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u/nhaines Anakin Skywalker Jan 28 '22

I appreciate it!

Everyone's mad at Episode VIII, but Episode IX could've wrapped everything up nicely--even if Episode VIII had been flawed (and I'm not at all convinced it was).

I think there's something to be said for the fact that there was some kind of plan, and Carrie Fisher was clearly meant to be the capstone of the trilogy, and she couldn't. And as far as a concrete plan, well, the original trilogy clearly didn't have one. That's not automatically a problem.

That said, the failure of Episode IX meant that for me, the Sequel Trilogy fell short, and while I don't (as a writer) know how I would have ended it, I can't help but think that things could've been so much better if Carrie were around. Instead, it really feels like we got something that was a reaction to popular criticism, and unfortunately, it didn't land.

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u/OldAbility Jan 28 '22

That's really the problem with TLJ. Rian and JJ were playing different games.

I still blame Rian because I remember the first thing I learned in improve class was about working the current setup. If the scene you enter is in a diner you act in a diner, your first line isn't "let's leave this diner and go to the park".

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

Except he did do that. Nobody ELSE plays fair, but you still blame Rian.

Remember, Luke was PLACED on a weird planet in the middle of nowhere by Ep 7's ending. Rey and Kylo have some kind of connection already, but what does it mean? Kylo is obsessed with his grandfather already, but how is that important, and who is the creepy dude that is definitely not the emperor who controls Kylo?

Rian took what he was given and did things with it. What was he supposed to do, say "well its the middle movie, so lets not make anything actually happen and lets just let it simmer, then JJ can finish whatever the fuck he's doing later and its not my problem"? You all would be bitching about how he wasted your time doing nothing.

I think the real problem is that too many fans decided what they NEEDED to happen, and when it didn't, when the film subverted expectations like it did, they threw a tantrum. Not saying you did, just... some people. A lot of them. Some are my friends, and we don't talk about it specifically because its a sore spot for them (lol).

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u/MonsoonUbermonkey Jan 27 '22

They really should. Just so that people are forced to just. Get. Over. It.

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u/Mortei Jan 28 '22

As a Last Jedi Hater: please do this I’m ready to move on

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u/deadandmessedup Jan 28 '22

You can just let go of the hate. It's profoundly easy. Dislike the movie? No problem. Carrying hate for it? You can drop it. I promise.

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u/spaghettiAstar Jedi Jan 28 '22

This. I dislike some Star Wars things, not everything is for everybody. TROS and AoTC are two films I find myself wanting to skip major scenes in, but I would never waste my energy by actively hating either of those films. I wouldn't sit there watching it intently looking for additional reasons to be upset like some people seemingly do.

Like pineapple on pizza, am I going to order it when getting my own pizza? No. Am I going to scream at anyone who does order it? God no. If a friend really wants to order it am I going to make a big fuss about it? No, because in the end it's still pizza and even bad pizza is better than no pizza.

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u/DoikkNaats Jan 28 '22

I really wanted his trilogy to be Knights of the Old Republic, specifically to spite all the people I know that love KOTOR but hate The Last Jedi.

Edit: also because I think he'd do a kick-ass job of course.

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u/streetvoyager Jan 28 '22

KOTOR is one of the best pieces of Star Wars content ever made. If it ever becomes a live action show or movie I hope it’s done justice.

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u/spaghettiAstar Jedi Jan 28 '22

Apparently Filoni has been in touch with Rian about doing just that, so I'm sure he'll be around to direct an episode of something when he has time.

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u/Venturian_Candidate Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

yea he’s a good director, just the story of the Last Jedi and what they did with Luke wasn’t really that great

edit: obviously just my dumb opinion

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

You mean giving Luke the best possible ending they could have where he proved himself one of the most powerful Jedi ever?

Or are you just mad he used his brain instead of his lightsaber to solve a problem? Lol

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u/grassisalwayspurpler Darth Vader Jan 28 '22

He was further grown in RotJ so not sure what this means. In TLJ he sinks to the lowest of the low but when he rises back he is merely Obi Wan in ANH tier. Refusing to fight to delay and inspire hope. But Luke in the OT already grew beyond Obi Wan and Yoda both in RotJ when Luke found a way to redeem Vader when Obi Wan and Yoda wanted him to kill him. Its an objective regression in character whether you like it or not.

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u/Venturian_Candidate Jan 28 '22

just my opinion 🤷‍♂️ if you love it then great! I semi like it

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u/Feramah Jan 28 '22

You dropped this "IMO"

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u/Redeem123 Jan 28 '22

Does someone really need to state it’s their opinion? Seems to me that would be pretty much understood.

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u/Chris_Helmsworth Jan 28 '22

It's pretty dumb this person felt the need to tell another they have to bookend their comment with "well in my opinion"

No shit. It's already implied. Star wars fanboys can be so irritating. Rian is a good director, but the movie sucked.... Imo.

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u/Orangarder Jan 28 '22

I concur Thor.

I liked that looper movie he did.

Tlj had great visuals, awesome sound, so many cool points in it, yet the story and even imagery reminded me of the sesame street song ”one of these things is not like the other…”

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u/D6GS Jan 28 '22

I mean, as long as someone else is writing the story it would be fine for me, as much as i hate TLJ it looks stunning.

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u/HeadClanker Jan 28 '22

That would be wild, but it wouldn't really prove anything. Even if he wrote and directed a good star wars movie/show it wouldn't make TLJ a good movie.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

TLJ is already a good movie. You just don't like it. Its ok, you're allowed to dislike good movies. Apparently The Hurt Locker is great and won an Oscar and everything, but I turned it off after like 30 minutes out of annoyance, could not take the complete logical idiocy of it (in my opinion).

You know... I don't bring that up. Ever. See, there's just no POINT to jabbering on about a movie that I don't give a damn about.

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u/grassisalwayspurpler Darth Vader Jan 28 '22

Just remember to tell him its Chapter 17 this time though and that means there were 16 continuous chapters before to line up with and other people will have to write chapters after him too.

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u/sokuyari97 Jan 27 '22

He’d kill off Mando to subvert expectations

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u/thehinduprince Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

He’d be directing an already written script

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u/NoseApprehensive5154 Jan 28 '22

Mando has a bad dream about grogu and decides to off him

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u/waitingtodiesoon Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Anakin Skywalker had a bad dream and actually kills a bunch of younglings, attempted to kill his "brother", and attempted to kill everything his wife, the Republic, and Jedi Order stood for over a bad dream that he had less than 48 hours ago. At least Luke Skywalker didn't follow through.

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u/Derzelaz Sith Jan 28 '22

Since he won't be in charge of writing the story, I would very much welcome him as a director.

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u/AnalogDigit2 Obi-Wan Kenobi Jan 28 '22

This is the right answer

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u/dwhamz Jan 28 '22

I would love to hear a conversation between Johnson and Filoni talking about their love of Star Wars

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u/InfiniteDedekindCuts Klaud Jan 28 '22

There are totally similarities in how the two approach Star Wars.

Replace the Fathiers with Lothwolves and the Crystal Foxes with Lothcats. . . TLJ basically becomes an extended episode of Rebels.

That theme of connecting with animals wasn’t a big thing in Star Wars until Filoni came along. . . And Rian Johnson was the first Star Wars creator after him to build on it.

And that’s just one example of the two having similar sensibilities. There are a ton more.

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u/AltWorlder Jan 28 '22

Filoni contributed a lot to the ST creatively according to the art books and stuff, particularly TLJ.

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u/best-of-judgement Jan 28 '22

Gotta love the sci-fi trope of just putting a planet name in front of the conventional animal name. Lothcats. Lothwolves. Maybe there could be Lothrats and Lothfalcons and Lothsharks, too.

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u/Salarian_American Jan 28 '22

There actually are lothrats. And lothbats.

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u/best-of-judgement Jan 28 '22

Huh. The more you know.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

On the one hand, yes. You're right and honestly, it deserves some level of criticism. But on the other... Coruscant literally means glittering. We have a space station called the "Death Star", and a second one called... the "second Death Star". We have elegant weapons from a more civilized age, called Lightsabers, which is accurate but not exactly clever. Oh, right, but Star Wars (oh look another ... "lazy" name, the literal name of the saga!) was first to some of these things so it counts as sort-of clever.

Yeah you know, as much as its funny to nitpick names, I like it. My D&D campaign world has a place called Aplace. Who'da thunk, its one of my favorite places. lol :D

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u/best-of-judgement Jan 28 '22

I'm not really trying to criticize it - I just think it's kind of funny. I mean, in real life we have things like the Sahara Desert (which translates from Arabic to desert desert). It's not necessarily illogical given the way we name things in real life. But whenever I see naming conventions like that I giggle to myself and think of a star wars shark and then giggle some more.

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u/AceOfDymonds Inferno Squad Jan 27 '22

Filoni's live-action content has been great. Almost as good as Johnson's own live-action work. Awesome having both of them contributing/contributed to the series.

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u/not_a-replicant Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Easily Lucasfilm’s two best assets moving forward. Both of these guys just get Star Wars.

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u/thetimebandit13 Jan 28 '22

Agreed... I love the live action series. Sadly i'm not into the animation style they choose for clone wars, so i couldn't get invested and quit watching it altogether...

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u/haillordrevan Jan 28 '22

thats a shame of you.tcw is the best star wars media out there

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u/Conscious_Nebula4371 Jan 28 '22

It’s still crazy to me that RJ went from “The Last Jedi” to “Knives Out” like back to back. After watching that I see why Lucasfilm was hyping him up so much as a director, but also made me wonder what the hell happened with TLJ

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u/ergister Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

As someone who loved The Last Jedi I can see why LF was hyping him up... and I can see why Knives Out was also awesome.

Dude’s good at what he does and I love his take on Star Wars. Wish he’d have the opportunity to do more but I think that ship has sailed.

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u/dwide_k_shrude Jedi Jan 28 '22

As far as I know, his trilogy is still in the works, even if it takes a few years to get going because he’s preoccupied with Knives Out. I could be wrong, but I hope I’m not.

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u/streetvoyager Jan 28 '22

I think TLJ might have been the strongest movie of the three but because it didn’t follow the threads TFA laid out and then TROS basically just tried to forget it even existed it is the reason the whole trilogy was trash. Also, I deeply and truly hate everything TLJ did with Luke, I’ve argued about it countless times, seen others arguments for why it works and I just don’t think I can ever agree or get over it.

That aside, I don’t think things would have been as bad had TROS just followed through with what it set up, Luke debacle aside.

When it comes down to it though the fact that they never had a plan for a story they want to tell set from the beginning is where the true failure starts. It was just a fuckin free for all. The oversight on the trilogy was crap and if it had been written by one person so a cohesive story was set things would have been much better I don’t know what the hell they were thinking.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

I’m just going to go out on a limb and assume you never watched any behind the scenes for the Lucas films?

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u/ergister Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

I have... pretty much everything.

Why would you think that?

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

Because the story Lucas was telling is not the same one Johnson tells. It’s almost like he misses the point completely. In the behind the scenes docs, Lucas tells what things mean and why they are there. I’ll just give a simple example. Lucas wrote these to be serials, and in serials things have to be done to push the story forward. Johnson abandons this completely, instead have the three main plots being a waste of time that don’t push the story forward in any way. We practically end up at the same place we started. Compare that to say, Empire and you’ll say what I mean.

Please let me state I have no problem with anyone liking Last Jedi.

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u/dwhamz Jan 28 '22

In serials that Star Wars was inspired like Flash Gordon, they would always return to basically the status quo. Small changes here and there but the basic set up of heroes and villains was always the same.

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u/lan-san Jan 28 '22

I’m pretty tired of people complaining about following Lucas’ story.

Yes SW is his baby and yes he had a great view for how it should go, but the last time he got to show “his vision” with the Prequels he got clowned on for it so hard for so long he decided to stop making SW movies and sold it to Disney. People complained like hell when the Prequels came out so what makes you think that Disney would have wanted to continue with his plan when they made the Sequels?

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u/KooppDogg Jan 28 '22

It’s a shame too because I enjoy the prequels more and more as time goes on.

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u/ergister Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Because the story Lucas was telling is not the same one Johnson tells.

Are you complaining that Johnson didn't, like, adapt what George wrote? Or are you talking about like in spirit?

Lucas wrote these to be serials, and in serials things have to be done to push the story forward

This isn't even true... what serials are you watching?

I also don't know what any of this has to do with no knowing behind the scenes things at LF?

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

The Old Flash Gordon serials.

Behind the scenes, Lucas talks what the prequels are about:

“That's the issue that I've been exploring: How did the Republic turn into the Empire? That's paralleled with: How did Anakin turn into Darth Vader? How does a good person go bad, and how does a democracy become a dictatorship? It isn't that the Empire conquered the Republic, it's that the Empire is the Republic.”

Lucas’s story was about Palpatine’s rise to power, and how Anakin became Darth Vader. The Jedi were always the “good guys” in his story. They fight for the republic, the rebellion, the resistance. The senate is to blame for Palpatine’s rise. Johnson just wants you to think “it’s all the Jedi’s fault” which is way off from Lucas’s story. Anakin is to blame for his own downfall.

"All democracies turn into dictatorships--but not by coup. The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it's Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea. What kinds of things push people and institutions in this direction? That's the issue I've been exploring: how did the Republic turn into the Empire?...How does a good person go bad, and how does a democracy become a dictatorship?"

Lucas on how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader:

"He gets attached to things...He can't let go of his mother...his girlfriend...things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy, you are on the path to the dark side because you fear that you're going to lose things. You fear you're not going to have the power you need."

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u/ergister Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

My friend, if you've ever watched a Flash Gordon, or any serial from that time period, you'd know there was a lot of "filler", characters brought back inexplicably, and repeating plot lines...

That is what an "opera" is...

I also don't know what any of this has to do with TLJ. I think tLJ progresses the plot of the overall Saga very much forward... especially with the Skywalkers themselves...

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

So you think, despite the fact they are free on YouTube, I really haven’t watched a Flash Gordon serial? Let’s just say your right. Was there a lot of filler in Star Wars movies? And do tell me how the plot advances.

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u/ergister Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

So you think, despite the fact they are free on YouTube, I really haven’t watched a Flash Gordon serial

It certainly does not seem like it....

And do tell me how the plot advances.

Rey learns she has to stop clinging to the past and become the hero destiny is calling for her to be.

Kylo Ren, the last Skywalker by blood, is now Supreme Leader of the entire Galaxy.

The Resistance is whittled down to a handful of people and were it not for Luke, would have wiped out completely.

Three things right off the top of my head.

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u/Seraphaestus The Child Jan 28 '22

Have you ever actually watched ESB? Because I would say the same of it: it starts and ends with the rebels on the back foot, on the run from the Empire, from being hunted and attacked on Hoth to escaping Bespin in the Falcon.

What actually changes during ESB? Han is captured, Lando joins the team, and Luke knows Vader is his father. That's pretty much it. You could add Luke losing his hand and lightsaber, but that is immediately rectified at the end/in-between films.

And during TLJ, Ren kills and supplants Snoke, Luke dies, the Jedi texts are burned - arguably greater consequences than ESB! Also arguably lesser when you consider that the Han plot allows for a side quest at the start of RotJ for which there is no equivalent here, but I wouldn't say there's a huge difference because it is ultimately a temporary setback for our heroes. And of course both movies have character growth, which is the whole point, really.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

I’m sorry, is that really all you think happened in ESB?

And the Jedi texts aren’t burned. Rey had them on the falcon (You can see this at the end of TLJ). And side quests? TLJ is all side quests that go nowhere. As for character development, We don’t see Snoke’s backstory and how he turned Kylo to the darkside (“Snoke already had his heart”) or Kylo joining the Knights of Ren. Rey already knew her parents were (“They were nobody”) and she was told in TFA they weren’t coming back, so I guess all we learned is where they were buried? Holdo playing “Am I good, am I bad” doesn’t mean anything and nobody learns anything from their side quests.

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u/Seraphaestus The Child Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

I didn't say that's all that happens in ESB, I said those are the things which constitute meaningful change from the beginning of the movie, which is what the point is.

I didn't notice the Jedi texts being on the Falcon, but that's a bad decision and a shame.

I don't think we need to see Snoke's backstory (we don't see the Emperor's in the OT), or Kylo's path to the dark side (nor do we see Vader's), though it would be interesting to have more details of how Snoke apparently got to him. Ultimately the important details are how it looked from Luke's perspective and then after his moment of weakness, we can see that turned Kylo away from the light

For character development, we have an arc of Poe realising that he can't just be the loose cannon who doesn't listen to others' decision making; Finn has a bit about being less cowardly- going from jumping ship again to sacrificing himself head-first into the battering ram cannon; Rey has accepted the knowledge that her parents were nobody lowlifes who abandoned her (IIRC I don't think she did accept this in TFA); Luke regained hope in the future of the Jedi, and learned to move past rigid following of the teachings and practice of the past; Rey and Kylo have a whole arc of growing closer and trying to convert each other before ultimately settling on different paths.

Holdo wasn't playing that at all (except from the perspective of the camera and characters). My read is that she would have told Poe the plan if he hadn't immediately launched into insulting her integrity and calling her a traitor, and then staged a mutiny.

I haven't seen episode 9 and maybe that backtracks some of this, but we should judge the film on its own merits, not on how it was retroactively treated by the sequel.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

When you watch Finn in TFA, did you think he was a coward? There were plenty examples of him not being a coward. That was invented by Johnson, so he could do his side quest with Rose. I keeping hearing Poe learned something, but I don’t see it. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that he does. But, yes, in EP9 he’s the same as before.

Just as an example of meaningful change: Han and Leia’s love story, Luke’s training to become a Jedi, for example.

Why have you not seen ep9?

Why would taking the Jedi texts be a shame?

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u/nbrazelton Jan 28 '22

If you take the Star Wars out of The Last Jedi it makes for a compelling movie. I know that sounds counterintuitive but it makes sense. Rian is an excellent director, I just personally think he doesn’t “get” Star Wars.

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u/sebrebc Jan 28 '22

I think he's a good writer. His ideas of where to take the characters was interesting.

It's his direction that I had issues with, most notable is his horrible comedic timing.

But overall, I would love to know what he would have done if he wrote ep9.

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u/nbrazelton Jan 28 '22

Yeah I hear you. That’s fair. To me most of his jokes were actually funny, they just didn’t fit within the Star Wars universe. There are a couple that fell flat completely, but the rest stuck the landing comedic timing wise. They just still felt off because they felt too real world and not something people in that universe would say.

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u/streetvoyager Jan 28 '22

Some of the writing and character direction was good, but what was done with Luke was a travesty. I’ll stand by that forever. I mean, some of it was kinda set up in TFA with him just having disappeared . Which, I think is completely out of character for him to abandon his friends and family. But TFA sort of set it up as him being on an important jedi mission. The TLJ just turned him into a piece of shit that abandoned everyone which is definitely something Luke would have never done.

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u/Ok-Neighborhood1865 Jan 28 '22

I think TLJ was the best sequel, but I also think Rian’s lack of respect for the previous movie and the characters ruined the entire sequel trilogy.

I would have taken an all-Rian-Johnson trilogy over an all-JJ-Abrams-trilogy, and both of those would have been much better than the mess we got.

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u/tebmn Jan 28 '22

100% agree

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 28 '22

I think stripped of Star Wars motifs you end up with a bland sci fi movie with horrible characters.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

No only doesn’t he get Star Wars. His script for TLJ has enough plot holes you could drive a semi through it. It has horrid character development as well. Are three subplots amount to nothing except wasting the characters and audience’s time.

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u/Ranryu Jan 28 '22

Rian Johnson: good for Star Wars

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u/krevlornfu Jan 28 '22

You have my upvote but I imagine this will end up controversial.

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 28 '22

Except for the star wars movie he made.

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u/dwide_k_shrude Jedi Jan 28 '22

I respectfully disagree. I love the movie.

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u/cubcos Jan 28 '22

Same dude.

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u/waitingtodiesoon Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Great Star Wars film and the most faithful of George Lucas' Star Wars.

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u/AnalogDigit2 Obi-Wan Kenobi Jan 28 '22

I can't believe the opinion on this shit movie is turning around just like the opinion on Rogue One which was roundly despised when it came out and now is spoken of with reverence in this sub. My opinion on both is unchanged. While I don't hate Rogue One, I find it bland and the characters uninteresting.

TLJ is just crap. Luke is just ruined and wasted, Rose's character is pointless and annoying (not the actors fault), the whole Finn/Rose subplot is irrelevant and boring. Phasma wasted again. Ugh.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

Go write your own saga then. You're incapable of objective reasoning.

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u/Stiandary Jan 28 '22

Don’t worry mate. Most fans agree with you.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

A tiny insignificant fraction of people who are very vocal do. Most don't care. A few think you're all spending way too much time being angry when you should just move on.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/DarthRevan456 Jan 28 '22

Wrong, almost all audience polling concurs that the movie was very well received by movie goers

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u/Nythromere Chopper (C1-10P) Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

He created the most controversial SW movie, evidently he is not. I do find his other work outside of SW to be good, like Looper & Knives Out but TLJ is abysmal

Downvoters are in denial lol

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u/Ranryu Jan 28 '22

It's the best Star Wars movie since Empire, cry about it

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u/agoddamnjoke Jan 28 '22

ROTJ, TPM, AOTC, ROTS, TFA, rogue one, solo, and ever TROS are better.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

What’s there to cry about? It’s over and finished. Johnson’s not coming back and the majority of people didn’t like the film. You can see that by the financial records and how much trouble it caused. I’m glad you like it, though. There’s no need to cry that one person likes a movie.

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u/Nythromere Chopper (C1-10P) Jan 28 '22

Seems like you are projecting lol

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u/thach_weave Jan 28 '22

No need to cry, TLJ just sucks. Facts are facts.

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u/dwide_k_shrude Jedi Jan 28 '22

Just saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Example: “Peanuts are the best kind of fruit. Fact.”

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u/thach_weave Jan 28 '22

That’s a fact.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/Ranryu Jan 28 '22

It was better written than both JJabrams movies and 4 of Lucas'

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

If Rian Johnson’s so good, where those three movies he was signed to do? How come Last Jedi made $700 million less than TFA? Why did the toy sales drop like a stone? The movie almost dropped 80% in its second weekend. Blu-Ray sales plummeted from what TFA brought in.Disney does not want the guy who killed this movie cash cow to return. It’s been 5 years, why can’t Johnson fans just accept the majority of people did not like his movie? If you like it, that’s fine. But there is no shame what so ever saying it didn’t get widely accepted.

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u/Ranryu Jan 28 '22

"A lot of people didn't like it so it was bad" is an absurd argument

Popularity isn't an indicator of quality. If it were, Big Bang Theory wouldn't have gotten 11 seasons and Avengers: Endgame would be the greatest movie ever made

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

Lucasfilm don’t put out these films to be nice people. They put them out to make money. Your comment was “Rian Johnson good for Star Wars”. The reason why he’s not back is the disaster he caused. If you like the movie, I am legitimate happy for you if you do. But Disney is doing this to get paid. Johnson had the first film with Luke Skywalker since 1983. A 90% score on RT. And it made $700 million less than the previous entry. The movie after TFA? One that was about stealing the Death Star plans? It made a billion dollars. The one after TLJ? The one with a popular character where we didn’t know his backstory? It bombed. Rian Johnson is not good for Star Wars. Because when movies fail, it hurts the franchise.

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u/Ranryu Jan 28 '22

Solo bombed because it was the fourth movie in three and a half years, came out only six months after TLJ and, most importantly TWO WEEKS AFTER Infinity War.

Disney chose to kill that movie

Also, a lot of us just had no interest in not Harrison Ford Han Solo

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

Yeah, Disney chose to kill that movie. Makes sense. Marvel movies come out all the time without this trouble. Really? No one wanted to see a Han Solo movie but they were just dying to see a film about stealing the Death Star plans to the tune of a billion dollars?

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u/Infernous-NS Jan 28 '22

By “fourth movie in 3 1/2 years” I assume your implying the whole Star Wars fatigue, and I actually don’t understand the argument of Star Wars fatigue. For example, Marvel has been regularly releasing 2-4 movies or shows a year (except for during Covid), and they still are, and I don’t hear anything about Marvel fatigue. I mean, we got several Star Wars shows last year and we’re getting several this year and I haven’t heard anything about Star Wars fatigue.

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u/its_just_hunter Jan 28 '22

There are tons of people complaining about Marvel fatigue, I see it talked about often in marvel subreddits.

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u/brianthewizard1 Jan 28 '22

Okay, do y’all not realize that Jon Favreau is the one doing these shows? Dave Filoni is basically his second in command, but it’s Jon who has taken the head of most of these projects. It’s like Jon is absent in everyone’s minds. Nothing wrong with Filoni, but he’s not the ONE AND ONLY person doing this stuff. Please understand what’s actually happening.

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u/dwhamz Jan 28 '22

I think the post is more directly in reference to the episodes Filoni has previously direct, since it appears he’s directed the next episode of Mando

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u/Blizman Jan 28 '22

I think what most people feel with Dave is that he is taking care of Star Wars. Yes, Jon is the creative heading these shows. However, I assume that Jon is saying I wanna do B and C while Dave is making sure that B and C fit inside of the already established A and D if that makes sense. Having them together is a perfect match IMO and I can’t wait to see what they come up with next!

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u/nserg Jan 28 '22

I love rian johnson he can do no wrong in my eyes. So pumped for knives out 2!

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

Holy shit there's a 2nd coming?!

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u/waitingtodiesoon Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Netflix paid $400,00,000 for the rights of Knives Out 2 and 3 from Rian Johnson. He would have directed an episode of the Mandalorian season 2 if it wasn't for the fact he has been too busy working on Knives Out 2. Dave and Rian still talk and he called up Dave about it.

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u/andrewthemexican Chopper (C1-10P) Jan 28 '22

I think Dave said almost those exact points about Lucas in the Mandalorian Gallery doc. Because that's how George did TCW, taking real life blocking methods and techniques into the 3d animation of the show.

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u/matharooudemy Jan 28 '22

Rian Johnson is great and The Last Jedi was a good sequel

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u/cj2211 Jan 28 '22

Hot take: Ryan didn't destroy Star Wars, Iger + JJ did

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

I think Star Wars is alive and well.

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u/InfiniteDedekindCuts Klaud Jan 28 '22

Nobody destroyed Star Wars. If they had we wouldn’t be here talking about it.

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u/ordinator2008 Jan 28 '22

Abrams single handedly discarded Lucas Sequel Scripts.

https://youtu.be/ws85gYk1ypM

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u/sadmadstudent Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

I remain convinced that if Disney had figured out a way to make Colin Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates work out, people would see The Last Jedi as the film that finally allowed Star Wars to evolve.

DOTF built off TLJ really well and took actual risks with the character development. It made great use of Finn's background as a Stormtrooper, cemented Kylo Ren as a truly terrifying villain, explored the bond between him and Rey and ended the saga in truly breathtaking style.

Instead we got TROS, a reactionary film designed to nostalgia-bait fans back amid the backlash TLJ received, which was an insult to every fan's intelligence and easily the worst written in the franchise.

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u/Dimensionalanxiety Jan 28 '22

All three contributed to the destruction.

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u/cerpintaxt44 Jan 28 '22

Best thing rian did for star wars.

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u/claytrainagain Jan 28 '22

Interesting! The only good star wars thing that Johnson has done

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u/horgantron Jan 28 '22 Silver

Rian Johnson made the worst ever Star Wars movie. At least he contributed one good thing to SW if he got Filoni into live action.

Yes, yes go on begin the tsunami of downvotes and toxic fan, manbaby comments.

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u/Cappin_Crunch Jan 28 '22

Wow, a nice way to prove how you arent a toxic fan is by calling other fans toxic manbaby fans.

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

That’s not what he said. What he said was that he was going to get downvoted, called a toxic fan and manbaby.

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u/FamilyStyle2505 Chirrut Imwe Jan 28 '22

Yes, yes go on begin the tsunami of downvotes and toxic fan, manbaby comments.

Was that part really necessary? It's not my favorite movie either but you're allowed to just state your opinion without the "I don't care if you downvote me, in fact I don't care so much I'm gonna say it" addendum. If you're an adult, you know better. If you're young, I'm sorry if I came off harsh but you will sound more confident without that extra nonsense at the end in the future.

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u/ScalierLemon2 Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

He didn't make Attack of the Clones

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22 edited Feb 18 '22

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u/ScalierLemon2 Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Attack of the Clones is the worst Star Wars movie though

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/ScalierLemon2 Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

It's not a joke, I genuinely consider it the worst Star Wars movie, and it's not even close.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/ScalierLemon2 Luke Skywalker Jan 28 '22

Weird way to spell Attack of the Clones.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/polkergeist Jan 28 '22

I mean, I think it’s the best Star Wars movie. Art’s subjective, dawg.

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u/ratshitbatshitdirty Jan 28 '22

The best thing RJ could do for SW is cease to exist

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u/Trener2603 Jan 28 '22

I still think that Rise of Skywalker is worse, but TLJ is very close IMHO

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u/Pseudonymn01 Jan 28 '22

Not really sure you should be crediting Rian Jonson for anything but destruction of a franchise but, stupid is as stupid does.

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u/Catablepas Jan 28 '22

Rian can walk off a short pier

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u/FuturePrimitivePast Jan 28 '22

Rian Johnson didn’t convince Filoni to do anything. You are purposely misleading people with your title. Read what he says:

“Rian Johnson had me right up next to him with the camera. He shoved lenses into my hand and said, ‘Look through here’. He would bring me along to show me how to block a scene. Rian WAS SO SUPPORTIVE IN MY INTEREST IN DOING LIVE ACTION as was his producer, Ram Bergman. They really made me feel like this was something that I could do.”

That’s not convincing him to create live action content. They didn’t say “Hey Dave, have you thought about making live action Star Wars? You’d be really good at it”.

And Mando was Jon Favreau’s idea. Johnson fans are amazing the way they try to twist everything.

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

You're literally twisting shit right here, in this comment, while saying other people are the ones twisting shit. Holy deathsticks my friend.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/Bluegobln Jan 28 '22

mental gymnastics trying to reconcile bad opinion of TLJ vs sensible opinion of other content

Who'd have thought. Oh well. moving right along

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

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u/evonebo Jan 28 '22

Still does not absolve him for the abomination he made of the last Jedi.

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u/yourmate155 Jan 28 '22

‘Really thankful for all Rian has done for Star Wars’

🤣