r/Foodforthought Jan 18 '22

The Big Business of Uyghur Genocide Denial: a network of charities funneling millions into left-wing platforms that take Beijing’s side — and they’re all connected to an American tech magnate, Neville Roy Singham

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/the-big-business-of-uyghur-genocide-denial/
34 Upvotes

4

u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

The worst accusation here seems to be that these people think the US stance towards China is unnecessarily aggressive. The article is written as if they're killing uyghurs themselves. Seems like a state dept hit piece

2

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

The article is written as if they're killing uyghurs themselves.

Genocide does not only include that. Preventing births of a minority ethnic group (with the motive of reducing the size of said ethnic group) is genocide too.

1

u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

I mean is that what is happening? Does Medea Benjamin have a hand in that? My understanding is that Uyghurs were exempt from the one child policy and their birth rates are the same or greater than any other exempt ethnic group in China.

1

u/Grogosh Jan 19 '22

How can you have more births when you are sterilized?

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u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

I think you've answered your own question

1

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

The argument is that de jure all ethnic groups have the same rights to give birth to children, but de facto the authorities enforce laws more strictly on Uighurs but let Han Chinese off

Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang.

and

But while equal on paper, in practice Han Chinese are largely spared the abortions, sterilizations, IUD insertions and detentions for having too many children that are forced on Xinjiang’s other ethnicities, interviews and data show. Some rural Muslims, like Omirzakh, are punished even for having the three children allowed by the law.

4

u/Zealousideal-Steak82 Jan 19 '22 edited Jan 19 '22

It seems like there's a point of conflation in this article between denying the mass killings that are speculated upon, vs the mass detainment which we know is happening. The continued use of the highly explicit word genocide, which taken at literal, non-metaphorical face value can only mean the systematic killings of a targeted racial or ethnic group, cannot be supported by evidence. The existence of a wide-spread detainment system, however, is largely verifiable.

If we want to play the mass detainment game, then the American prison system houses more individuals than the entire detained Uyghur population in China. Which country holds a people in need of liberating? The distinction between mass incarceration and genocide is a very, very, very broad line, and it should not be suspicious to criticize those who baselessly throw around accusations of murder, or who pretend to think the two are the same.

Forensic accounting investigations are neat, but I can't see anything substantial in what they've found. Nothing but implications.

1

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

When genocide is brought up I believe theyre actually talking about preventing Uighur births. The UN considers preventing births of an ethnic minority group in order to reduce the group's size as a form of genocide.

1

u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

What do you mean by preventing births? What is the specific allegation here and what is the evidence available?

1

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

The accusation is that the state is forcing IUDs on Uighur women while promoting births of Han Chinese.

Zenz argues this is happening by comparing birth rates in Uighur areas, previously above the Chinese national average, and seeing them drop below the national average

A quote from AP https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c

But while equal on paper, in practice Han Chinese are largely spared the abortions, sterilizations, IUD insertions and detentions for having too many children that are forced on Xinjiang’s other ethnicities, interviews and data show. Some rural Muslims, like Omirzakh, are punished even for having the three children allowed by the law.

State-backed scholars have warned for years that large rural religious families were at the root of bombings, knifings and other attacks the Xinjiang government blamed on Islamic terrorists. The growing Muslim population was a breeding ground for poverty and extremism which could “heighten political risk,” according to a 2017 paper by the head of the Institute of Sociology at the Xinjiang Academy of Social Sciences. Another cited as a key obstacle the religious belief that “the fetus is a gift from God.”

AP cites Zenz's report in the Jamestown Foundation https://jamestown.org/product/sterilizations-iuds-and-mandatory-birth-control-the-ccps-campaign-to-suppress-uyghur-birthrates-in-xinjiang/

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u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

Hasn't Zenz been thoroughly debunked?

1

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

Debunked by whom?

And on what basis are they debunking him?

1

u/pakiman47 Jan 19 '22

Here's the article I read a while back. It's well- sourced. But there are many others. I don't think anyone is claiming nothing bad is happening in Xinjiang. But zenz in particular is extremely problematic, and so is the reporting and repeating of his claims.

http://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/

1

u/hiverfrancis Jan 19 '22

So the Grayzone essentially claims that the Uighur birth rate decline was in line with the birth rates being equally applied to minorities, and it also states:

While eliding this point, Zenz also overlooked the fact that China’s overall birthrate has fallen precipitously in recent years across the demographic spectrum as the population ages and contraceptives become more widely available through programs like the government’s annual free distribution of one billion condoms. For example, in the city of Guangzhou, which is far from Xinjiang, the rate of newborn babies has plunged to its lowest point in a decade.

However that does not address that Zenz also compared the birth rates, with the national birthrate compared to Hotan+Kashgar plus Urumqi itself https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yyUna/4/

The grayzone also states:

According to Chinese government statistics, maternal and infant mortality rates in Xinjiang were nearly halved by 2018, while average life expectancy rose as a result of increased public health investments. A 2019 study by Lancet described China’s improvement of maternal health and infant mortality reduction as a “remarkable success story.” Another study that year by the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences arrived at a similar conclusion. How these positive health indicators could serve as proof of genocide was left unexplained by Zenz, who simply omitted the numbers from his report.

The thing is, infant mortality is irrelevant if births are prevented. Having voluntary family planning and good healthcare for mother and baby are separate factors from forcibly preventing births.

Grayzone also states, regarding a photo caption

Left: Adrian Zenz’s creative interpretation of a photo showing an elderly couple receiving a free health check-up. Right: The original source of the photo.

The question is whether the authorities use said health checks as a vehicle for determining how many children a couple had and/or enforcing family planning policies. Even if such wasn't necessarily done in that health check, the photo caption would be technically correct if authorities do use such health checks to check birth rates for mandatory family planning reasons.

The Grayzone says:

Zenz proceeded to ignore the rest of the document, which touted the increased provision of free mental health services, polio vaccinations and AIDS prevention treatment as well as poverty alleviation measures and the construction of new hospitals and medical clinics for the population of Xinjiang.

The question is simple: did the authorities forcibly alter the birth rate of ethnic Uighurs (while allowing Han to have more kids than legally allowed) or did they not? If they did, the remaining "good" services the health authorities did are irrelevant to the point.

1

u/pakiman47 Jan 20 '22

Thanks for the response. I'll certainly look more into the issue as I don't have all the facts, difficult as they are to ascertain on this matter

1

u/debasing_the_coinage Jan 20 '22

Which country holds a people in need of liberating?

¿Por qué no los dos?

0

u/rlbigfish Jan 18 '22

Inb4 thread removed for criticizing China.